Turia- Discussino of Men - Slavery and Serving, Men mentoring Men

8:21 PM <Violent> Every man has their opinion of what exquisite beauty is, and isn't. Many feel that a kajira should be more sensual than sexual.

8:23 PM <Violent> If this was a Port Kar paga tavern, id expect a certain type of filth and debauchery that one would expect in a place called the "scourge of the thassa"

8:23 PM — yuna{G} looks down with just her eyes so that her lashes nearly grace her cheeks, not letting the set of her chin fall out of place while holding herself in pose. "What would you do with the silks around my hips, Master?" She gets an anxious feeling with his eyes pondering over her busty little frame.

8:25 PM <~Garen> Eh, I think it's a pretty wide, gray line. I'm not a big fan of the overly flowery writing either.

8:26 PM — ~Garen smirks at yuna. "Well, I suppose that is the question isn't it?"

8:28 PM <Violent> One of a slaves freedoms is the unadulterated access to her sexuality... I say encourage it fully, and let the chips fall wherever they may. If she needs to be a whore, let her be a whore, if she needs to be sensual let her be sensual, if she needs her prince charming, perhaps she might find a Beast for her beauty. If she wants to pleasure every man that walks thru those doors, more power to her.

8:30 PM — yuna{G} eyes him carefully, wondering what his mind is getting up to; as the minutes stretch on in her display, she's more prone to the tiniest shifts and twitches in her muscles. She nibbles on her bottom lip, then asks with her nipples shining right at him.. "I could put the top back on?"

8:32 PM — ~Garen rises, taking a couple of steps towards the girl, grin wide across his lips. In a single tug he undoes the knot holding her camisk in place, allowing the soft silk to fall to the furs, leaving her bare, save for the chains linking her wrists to her neck, and the ropes binding her now naked body.

8:34 PM <Violent> "A slave girl must be at least a whore, and a marvelous one at that. Being a whore is but a small step in the direction of being a slave girl." (Slave Girl of Gor, p.220)

8:34 PM <~Garen> I think that's an excellent viewpoint Violent.

8:35 PM <~Garen> Besides, if Norman hadn't intended the slaves to be sexually needy, he wouldn't have come up with so many ways for them to beg a man to fuck them.

8:36 PM <Violent> So many girls cower behind yellow silks. Sexuality has been largely absent in Gor for many years.

8:36 PM — yuna{G} blushes very sweetly as a now naked, purely ornamented slave. She always feels like the camisk doesn't really clothe her at all, but now that she's stripped to nothing before him and the room, the flimsy, petal soft pool on the fur seems suddenly quite precious. She whimpers a little bit and tilts her rounded hips.

8:37 PM <Violent> Like yellow somehow offers a layer of protection from the desires of men

8:39 PM <~Garen> I've been back and forth on the topic in my head really. I think it makes sense for girls new to Gor to start in white silks, to serve and chat in the home rather than being dragged to an alcove over and over again, so that she can experience more of Gor than just the fucking.

8:39 PM <~Garen> But I don't think it makes sense for yellow silks to be restricted.

8:40 PM — ~Garen casually plays with yuna's breast as he speaks, his firm grip casually kneading them between his fingers. "There's no reason to treat them like free women after all."

8:41 PM <Violent> I feel if a man is becoming an issue, the slave should talk to her owner or a man she trusts, and the men should resolve it behind closed doors. If that doesn't work there are always IRCops

8:44 PM — yuna{G} utters a gentle moan as his kneading palm glides over her nipple in the midst of the languid mauling, fingers flexing behind her head. She puts more curve in her back, inspired, eyes fluttering at him while he discusses.

8:45 PM <~Garen> I think if the slave feels the need to be a restricted yellow in order to feel safe, barring some sort of very specific reasoning, and not just a general "I don't want to fuck", something has gone wrong either with her training or with the safety she should feel in her home.

8:46 PM <Violent> The issue i feel is that some men simply don't have the.... Gall to call themselves Gorean, and the women pick up on it... No slave wants to serve a man they can manipulate or see right thru. So giving Them an out, may be needed.

8:49 PM <Violent> Have you ever worked under a passive aggressive boss in a work environment.... It makes you want to kick babies.

8:49 PM <Violent> It's the same idea.

8:50 PM <~Garen> Lol

8:50 PM <~Garen> What a way to phrase it. Yea I've had a few of those, not many.

8:50 PM — Violent chuckles

8:51 PM <~Garen> I think for the most part such men get weeded out pretty quickly though.

8:52 PM <Violent> You're talking about women that need dominance... They need to exist for service and pleasure.... Quickly isn't fast enough.

8:53 PM <Violent> And some linger around

8:56 PM — ~Garen circles yuna, raking his fingertips along her belly, then the small of her back. He takes her hands in his, slowly lowering them for her til they cross behind her back. Then, draping his arm over her shoulder, he returns to the casual toying of her sensitive flesh. "I suppose that's part of the problem. There are plenty of opportunities to teach a slave to be a slave. Teaching a man to be a man is a whole different animal."

8:57 PM <Violent> Well that's the thing, most men are Men enough to think they know best... There isn't often a man who will admit otherwise.. Heh

8:59 PM — ~Garen chuckles, "Yea that's the challenge."

8:59 PM Xanthus → Dj`Xanthus, DJ`aerialbotgurl → +aer-i-al (voiced)

9:01 PM — yuna{G} 's arms are gently guided behind herself, wrists crossing like they're shackle bound; she listens to the conversation with interest, as much interest one can have while being made drunk on touches and gropes. Some of the words float in one ear and right out the other, though she mindfully keeps herself quiet, gently burbling sounds and sighs of pleasure, tilting her naked body back against him.

9:06 PM — ~Garen steps back from the slave, his fingers sliding over her delicate skin as he does, before he settles back on his furs. "I think really it comes down to honor. Thinking honorably, acting honorably, for some it is more difficult than others."

9:07 PM <~Garen> And honor itself is such a subjective topic.

9:08 PM <~Garen> If a man believes something is right and acts in accordance to that belief, the man acts honorably. Even in a war, two men on opposite sides can both believe they are in the right, and if they do, then they both act honorably.

9:08 PM → @TxRanger (opped) joined

9:10 PM <Violent> I was thinking of something, and id like your opinion on it, i dont have all the details ironed out yet, but in my mind it works.

9:10 PM <Violent> Just give me a moment to type it up

9:14 PM <Violent> I was thinking about starting a New trend in Gor. One where all type of slaves could be held accountable to the notion that they exist for service and pleasure. I haven't quite figured out all the details yet. but Instead of requiring all slaves to serve food and drink mindlessly, night after night... Give a slave the opportunity to choose what type of duties she might excel at. For example a Kettle slave or serving slave would be mostly

9:14 PM <Violent> serving only, a pleasure slave would be expected to take those serving dutys a step further, a municipal slave perhaps should always be relied upon to have a topic of discussion at hand, or be commanded to interact with the bot at a man's request, perhaps to quote things... The possibilities are as endless as our creativity allows, it keeps all slaves Pleasing in ways they are good at.

9:15 PM <@TxRanger> More of a "slave specialization" type of arrangement ?

9:15 PM <Violent> Yes.

9:15 PM <@TxRanger> Would there be a basic set of duties all slaves would be expected to perform?

9:16 PM — @TxRanger smiles over to cheeri{O}... so good to see you, girl

9:17 PM <Violent> Well one of the issues that have plagued Gor for years, is the mindless serves that are expected over and over and over... That some girls enjoy but many more tend to bitch about.

9:17 PM <Violent> It creates the naked waitress environment.

9:17 PM <@TxRanger> I think the premise of the idea is solid. The logistics would need to be worked out

9:18 PM <@TxRanger> For example, what if I want a beer, and there's no slut around who specializes in beer fetching?

9:19 PM <Violent> The closest one

9:19 PM — Violent Grins

9:19 PM <~Garen> I've actually had the same thought.

9:19 PM <Violent> All slaves are expected to obey

9:19 PM <~Garen> Yuna, what have I told you is the most important part of a serve?

9:20 PM <@TxRanger> In theory, I like it

9:20 PM <yuna{G}> Drawing in the Master and creating a connection, engaging them.

9:21 PM <Violent> Just a quick whois will tell you that the girl has specific duties. And unless you specifically command her, she's going to go about doing HER duties

9:21 PM — ~Garen chuckles, "Yuna I don't think that part works with your whois."

9:22 PM — yuna{G} giggles.

9:22 PM <Violent> Slamming cucumbers in vegetable pouches.

9:24 PM <@TxRanger> Free have castes with specific duties. I don't see a reason the slaves could not have a similar system

9:25 PM <Violent> That's a new one.. I've heard of a girl sucking so well that she could suck a golfball thru a garden hose, or a woman being so loose that it's like throwing a hotdog down a bowling alley.... But cucumbers in vegetable pouches.... That's a new one

9:27 PM <~Garen> The thing is, the problem with the serves isn't really the slaves. It's the men.

9:28 PM <~Garen> And I know that sounds counter to Gorean philosophy, slaves are for men's pleasure, yada yada. That's all true. But that doesn't mean that the men should be unengaged in the serve. How many times do we see a girl write a book describing the intricacies of a serve, and then the response is "Thanks."

9:29 PM <@TxRanger> If the girl is going to go to such lengths, I think the Man should put at least a little effort into a reply

9:30 PM <~Garen> When I train a girl to serve, I train them to look for ways to engage the men in the serve, rather than hyper-focusing on this drink or that, cleaning this cup, and all of the cookie-cutter, repeated stuff. But ultimately, that's all the girl can do, is be as inviting as possible. The onus is still on the man to engage.

9:31 PM <~Garen> It's one of the reasons I think Serenity's idea of having different challenges each week is really great. Whether you like the current week's challenge or hate it, it can become a talking point that nudges the men to engage in the serve.

9:32 PM <Violent> generally speaking, if i allow a slave to serve me, i offer some sort of Challenge .. Once she's back at my feet, i feel that moment before i say i'm pleased or displeased.... Teaches a girl more about her slavery than 100 cookie cutter serves.

9:32 PM <~Garen> Girls end up disinterested in serving because spending 30 minutes describing how you poured a drink and getting near-0 response back is BORING! The girl gets nothing out of it, and quite frankly, these men likely don't either.

9:33 PM <@TxRanger> It becomes about fulfilling an expectation, checking a box, rather than enjoying one another

9:33 PM <Violent> Serving a man is a privilege, not a right. The reality is i can Get my own drink

9:33 PM <~Garen> Yes, I've seen how you interact. I'll admit, sometimes I find you a bit harsher than I'd prefer, but I truly appreciate that you're willing to engage, that it's not just "oh you're done typing up a storm, kthx."

9:35 PM <Violent> there is an old Quote, "Gor is Harsh, Gor is Gor" someone needs to uphold the old standards of Expecting to be impressed, i am hard on these girls with the intention of showing them how kind i can be when i'm pleased, and that kindness in men, isn't weakness

9:36 PM <~Garen> The thing is, there's a difference between being uninterested and being unengaged.

9:37 PM <Violent> If that keeps some girls who don't feel their slavery as deep to not kneel at my feet im not missing out on all that much anyway.

9:37 PM <~Garen> You can show your disinterest, disappointment, or any other of a long list of negative emotions, that can pull at the emotional strings of the slave serving you.

9:38 PM <~Garen> That's different from being unengaged, accepted the serve, but offering no response at all.

9:38 PM <Violent> I agree

9:38 PM <~Garen> That's the real problem with serves in my opinion.

9:38 PM <~Garen> When I don't have the time or attention to be engaged, I turn the slave away.

9:38 PM <~Garen> Because neither of us will gain any value from that kind of search.

9:38 PM <~Garen> serve*

9:39 PM <Violent> I do Also

9:39 PM — @TxRanger nods

9:40 PM <Violent> I value your opinion Garen, i feel you have a Good Head on your shoulders.

9:44 PM <~Garen> Likewise man.

9:45 PM <~Garen> It all comes back to the quandary from earlier though. How do you teach men to be men?

9:48 PM <Violent> I can be quite abrasive. I find that i often steamroll over men . It's the alpha /sigma mentality. I personally love teaching and mentoring, i learned alot from my own mentors.

9:48 PM <Violent> I challenge Men to stand up to me and back up their claims.

9:48 PM <Violent> I might disagree but that's often a good thing, if two men can agree to disagree

9:49 PM <~Garen> Honor is doing what you believe is right. It's not going to be the same for everyone. So for those times when it differs, we'll fall back on respect.

9:51 PM <Violent> First they need to be open to to learning.

9:52 PM <Violent> I remember first coming to Gor, and seeing beautiful women flocking to Strong Men, the solution was simple... If i wanted what those men had, id need to be what those men were.

9:52 PM <Violent> It's served me well

9:52 PM <@Vy`Work> That is where I personally messed up

9:53 PM <Violent> I grew up without a Father. Gor gave me alot of father Figures to look up to.

9:53 PM <Violent> Starting at the age of 17

9:54 PM <Violent> A boy learning to exist in a man's world

9:54 PM <@Vy`Work> I came to Gor wanting to be more than what I saw. At 14 I did not know crap. And I served as a kajirus for a year because of that mentality.

9:57 PM <~Garen> Strong is another one of those subjective words I think.

9:57 PM <Violent> Admittedly some of the men back then scared the piss out of me, i could only imagine what the slaves that were being yelled at were feeling, heh

9:58 PM <Violent> You know you're in Gor when your hair stands up on end, and you get that fight or flight sensation.

9:59 PM <Violent> At least that's how it used to be.

9:59 PM <~Garen> I suppose my experiences in Gor have been very different. I think whatever Old Gor was, it was very different from today, just based on what I've heard.

10:01 PM <@Vy`Work> But from that position I was able to learn more about myself. And Gor.

10:03 PM <~Garen> I cannot imagine you as a kajirus lol

10:03 PM <@Vy`Work> Oh dear gods yes it is like night and day. Goreans today I dont think scare anything. Being a new slave you did not want to go into Gorean Homes back then. As Violent. Said the Men would scare the he'll out of folks. Amd it did not take much.

10:04 PM — @Vy`Work chuckles "that is a good thing as its not somewhere I enjoyed being."

10:06 PM <Violent> The fight or flight response certainly has its place in Gor

10:07 PM <@Vy`Work> So that it does and its something that we are missing now

10:10 PM <~Garen> I think probably more adding to the divergent experience is that I was an adult already when I first came to Gor. I'd already had an understanding of who I was, and my experience has been more deciding in which ways I wanted to be more Gorean and which ways I didn't, rather than a shock-and-awe.

10:11 PM <Violent> The shock and Awe... For the most part, was that men weren't afraid to make an example out of a displeasing slave, to keep the others in Line ... It's almost like there is an underlying fear now that if men act strong and harsh all the slaves might get up and leave.

10:13 PM <Violent> The constant threat of the whip is more important than actually using it, but if you do, make sure it's in plain view of the other girls.

10:14 PM <@Vy`Work> Absolutely Violent

10:14 PM <Violent> Discipline is largely absent these days also

10:16 PM <~Garen> I think it's a double edged sword though. Just as Gorean men aren't sadists, Gorean women aren't masochists either. Cruelty in a punishment far exceeding the offense doesn't cement a man's dominance in my mind, it makes makes him look like he's not in control of his own actions.

10:17 PM <Violent> So.. I'll be the first to admit that I've used slaves for the sole purpose of making a spectacle of them.... Like everything it can have positive and negative repercussions. But one thing is for certain , that slave will likely never make that mistake again.

10:18 PM <Violent> I've been thanked more than I've been cursed over the years

10:19 PM <Violent> Women need to feel their slavery, and deeply

10:19 PM <Violent> At least... Slaves do

10:19 PM <Violent> Gor isn't hard... For Goreans

10:19 PM <@Vy`Work> Truth

10:23 PM <Violent> There have been times, where I've been correcting or disciplining a slave in the room, she's thanking me and Apologizing me in my PM, while three men in chat try to intervene and be her "savior"

10:23 PM <Violent> It happened way more than it should have

10:25 PM <@Vy`Work> Yes yes yes ^

10:25 PM <Violent> Afterwards, she's begging to get fucked, and they can't figure out what they are doing wrong

10:25 PM <Violent> Wash rinse and repeat

10:29 PM <~Garen> I've said it in here before but I think there's a scale on which most men fall, of being soft like marshmallows (1) and murder you cruel (100). And I think most men hover between 20 (lowest you can go before the slaves are just walking all over you) , and 70 (highest you can go before you're just an asshole getting your rocks off on beating girls).

10:29 PM <Violent> Grins

10:30 PM <Violent> Despite my name, ive never taken pleasure in beating a girl who for all practical purposes exists for my pleasure.

10:30 PM <~Garen> But the thing is, with such a wide range, someone at 25 looking at someone at 65 sees something very cruel, and likewise, vice versa, the guy at 65 sees someone very soft.

10:30 PM <~Garen> I don't think one is necessarily more or less Gorean than the other though.

10:32 PM <~Garen> Yea, I didn't mean that as an accusation.

10:32 PM <Violent> I know.

10:33 PM <Violent> I actually have that "grumpy wife beater look" in person.

10:33 PM — Violent Chuckles

10:35 PM <~Garen> lol

10:37 PM <@Vy`Work> In real ive got the Cali guy vibe

10:37 PM <~Garen> Lol, in RL I've got the same goofball personality I have here.

10:38 PM <Violent> On that Scale, i feel anyone Above 50 can be classified as Gorean. I disagree, weakness has no place in Gor

10:38 PM <Violent> And if you are weak you'd do well to fake it, until you make it

10:38 PM <Violent> Or find another hobby

10:39 PM <Violent> I wouldn't be here if i thought it represented weakness.

10:39 PM <Violent> Turia, i am pleased to say, is several steps in the right direction

10:39 PM <~Garen> What is weak though? If every slave serves your pleasure without you ever having to beat one, does that make you weak?

10:40 PM <Violent> I hope i never have to beat a slave. I wouldn't own a slave that i needed to best regularly, period

10:40 PM <Violent> Beat*

10:41 PM <Violent> There are so many women out there that would beg to pleasure me... If i need to beat her regularly, something isn't working

10:43 PM <~Garen> Right. How we define the scale is arbitrary. I'd define weak as allowing the slave to top from bottom. If the slave is calling the shots and not the man, then the man is weak.

10:43 PM <Violent> Women... Like the idea of the bad guy, not necessarily, being with the "bad guy"

10:43 PM <Violent> Heh

10:43 PM <~Garen> If he's calling the shots, then he's strong.

10:43 PM <Violent> Agreed!

10:43 PM <~Garen> Beyond that it's just varying degrees of the same thing.

10:44 PM <Violent> But when the slaves are rolling their eyes to me in private, and i see everything that they see... Heh

10:45 PM <~Garen> Lol

10:45 PM <Violent> They don't want to be babied, or coddled

10:46 PM <Violent> They want to be Mastered by strong men

10:46 PM <Violent> The more masculine we are, the more feminine they feel

10:46 PM <Violent> They need to feel that

10:47 PM <Violent> Come here little bunny Foo Foo... Doesn't cut it in Gor.... Period

10:47 PM <Violent> I hope someone quotes that

10:47 PM <Violent> Heh

10:48 PM <yuna{G}> !addquote <Violent> Come here little bunny Foo Foo... Doesn't cut it in Gor.... Period

10:48 PM <+xanthia{T}> Quote number 482 added.

10:48 PM — Violent grins big

10:48 PM <~Garen> Lol

10:49 PM <~Garen> Come here little bunny Foo Foo...

10:49 PM <Violent> Lol

10:54 PM — ~Garen jots down "bunnyfoofoo" as a potential name for the next slave.

10:55 PM <@Vy`Work> Bunnyfoofoo nono

10:56 PM <Violent> I was speaking of a man earlier. By the name of Thandar

10:56 PM <~Garen> Maybe just foofoo then.

10:56 PM <~Garen> Thandar... isn't that a bot?

10:57 PM <Violent> Here yes, the man i'm speaking of was like 10 years ago, different server /client

10:58 PM <~Garen> Oh I see

10:58 PM <Violent> He gave every slave a Z name to help institutionalize them as slaves, on top of severely curbing the way they spoke and the Pronouns they could use

10:59 PM <Violent> zeno, zipporah, zelia.... Etc

11:00 PM <~Garen> I prefer names that mean things myself.

11:01 PM <Violent> I've always been terrible at naming a slave.

11:01 PM <~Garen> And, by curbing the way they speak and pronouns they use, do you mean referring to themselves in third person? Calling themselves it?

11:01 PM <Violent> Yes, but even more of an extreme.

11:03 PM <Violent> At the time, i couldn't be bothered to learn his methods, as i don't agree with the institution of Slavery as deeply as he did.

11:03 PM <Violent> But he certainly had them under his thumb

11:03 PM <~Garen> I personally don't like that.

11:03 PM <Violent> Me either

11:04 PM <~Garen> I don't like the use of third person, and I definitely don't like the use of "It".

11:04 PM — Serenity`afk comes back in with a box of tissues in each hand and settles in her furs with a sneeze.

11:04 PM Serenity`afk → Serenity

11:04 PM <Serenity> I definitely have a cold.

11:05 PM <~Garen> I'd say put something warm on, but I think the 60 robes should be enough.

11:05 PM <Violent> It's important to make sure a slave feels the dynamic of her condition, i can think of a dozen other ways, other than making her speak like an object

11:06 PM <~Garen> Agreed!

11:08 PM <Serenity> This is an interesting conversation. I am don't mean to interrupt.

11:10 PM <Violent> Have you read back?

11:10 PM — Serenity nods. "Yes, I did."

11:10 PM <Violent> Please do offer Any input or thoughts you might have

11:10 PM <Serenity> Thank you.

11:10 PM <~Garen> A slave doesn't need to feel dehumanized to feel her slavery.

11:11 PM <~Garen> And besides, we don't need robo-slaves.

11:11 PM <Serenity> I do wonder what the men could do more of in ways to mentor other men?

11:12 PM <~Garen> It's a delicate balance. While I know what I want the men in this home to do more of, it is counter to Gorean philosophy to simply mandate by rules that they do those things.

11:13 PM <Serenity> Were you mentored, Garen?

11:13 PM <Serenity> And I know you said you were, Violent. What did that consist of?

11:14 PM <~Garen> I was not.

11:15 PM — @Vy`Work leans back against his wall.

11:15 PM <~Garen> I actually got my introduction to Gor from a couple of slave girls. And I learned about the technicalities and lore a bit from them.

11:15 PM <Violent> It was me going to a man i admired and saying help.... This is the situation, what would you do, and why?

11:15 PM <~Garen> The rest I just sorted out on my own.

11:15 PM — Serenity smiles, not even seeing Vy. "And were your mentored?"

11:15 PM <~Garen> Some mixture of what I found in the lore, and what I decided made sense to me.

11:15 PM <Serenity> sorry - just not up to my normal attentiveness.

11:16 PM <@Vy`Work> I was mentored in a different way.

11:17 PM <Violent> I remember a mentor pulling me Aside Saying "Look, if you had told me 5 years ago that i could be walking into a Vegas hotel with a slave girl in each arm i would have laughed in your face, but here i am... Expect to be impressed "

11:18 PM <@Vy`Work> I learned to be a man by watching those I wanted to be. But I did it from my knees a collared slave.

11:19 PM <Violent> My main mentor lived in Vegas with another Gorean man i admired, they regularly had several live-ins.

11:20 PM <@Vy`Work> Nice Violent

11:21 PM <Serenity> I see a lot of good conversations that happen and I've seen coming together of the minds. I don't know what goes on beyond that, but I have hope that men reach out and speak to other men.

11:22 PM <Serenity> When a girl or a new man comes in, I take the time to speak with each one of them privately, talk to them about what they know, what questions they have, but I think a man-to-man conversation can and would go much further. I think I help but its not the same.

11:23 PM <Xallen> Tal

11:23 PM <Serenity> Sometimes it feels like so many of the girls are jaded and all they do is sit back and look to see who *isn't* Gorean and that honestly drives me crazy.

11:23 PM — +xanthia{T} winks at Xallen. 'Xanthia has been doing all the work again!'

11:23 PM <Serenity> Tal, Xallen.

11:24 PM <Violent> Like i said... most men already know "best."

11:24 PM <Violent> I was mentored in that Crucial transition from Boy to man

11:25 PM <~Garen> Greetings Xallen

11:25 PM <Violent> I remember a heated argument with my mentor and him telling me sometimes two bulls just don't fit in the same enclosure. That I've outgrown his teachings.

11:25 PM <Xallen> Uh oh, is this a pedagast story?

11:26 PM <Serenity> But on the flip side, I don't blame the girls either...

11:27 PM <Serenity> I was thinking about what you said, and also the topic from earlier, about "How does a man really know a girl is there out of obligation or because she actually wants to be"

11:28 PM <Serenity> Why do we send the girls to men when most of the time it's not something they want? Instead let the men actually call the girls to them if they want them?

11:28 PM <Vy`Work> Well if they are like me they have learned how to see the girl. Not what she wants you to see.

11:29 PM — +{iona}TS nods thinking of the moment when Masters truly see us

11:29 PM <Serenity> If the girl wants to go and beg to please a man, she should. If a man wants a girl to come serve, he should call her.

11:29 PM <Violent> I can see right thru most girls, actions speak louder than words, it's not perfect, but like i said, lip service is manipulation, and it infuriates me

11:30 PM <Serenity> I can imagine, it would me too.

11:33 PM <Violent> I'm pleased that Turia doesn't allow the bickering and overly playful banter between slaves that dominate the room scroll and lead to environment controlled by its women, while the men sit by idly and let it happen.

11:33 PM <Xallen> Well.

11:34 PM <Xallen> Only when Serenity has been drinking.

11:34 PM <Xallen> You might have missed the last episode of yhat.

11:34 PM — Serenity laughs.

11:35 PM <Violent> There is a time and a place for everything, even playful banter between slaves... It's just not "always" that time

11:36 PM <Serenity> I think we have a very good group of people in here and that is also the reason that doesn't happen.

11:36 PM <Xallen> I would like to point out though that the practicalities of IRC lead to the sorts of things happening that you speak of

11:37 PM <Xallen> Both of you, i mean

11:37 PM <Serenity> Leads to me drinking?

11:37 PM — Serenity :)

11:37 PM <Serenity> But yes, I see what you're saying.

11:37 PM <Xallen> Indeed!

11:37 PM — +cheeri{O} peeks into Master Violent's eyes, her face grimaced having recalled His admonition about that earlier. It's an "i'm still sorry about that, Master" look that hopefully He'll want to kiss away with a peck on her forehead eventually

11:38 PM <Xallen> There is a pressure on channel slaves and slaves of the owners to make the place seem inviting, active and inclusive

11:39 PM <Serenity> I wondering if there is a better way to balance that.

11:39 PM — Violent smiles warmly

11:40 PM <Xallen> Thus pressure is rarely felt by anyone else. And if a man walks in, sits down and demands a girl, then he risks offending but also risks missing out on someone hes never met offering, as men will usually stick to what they know

11:41 PM <Serenity> I think you're absolutely right in that. A man coming in, demanding a slave, there's risks to that... is that a good thing or a bad thing?

11:41 PM <Xallen> Lastly, the bigger the room, the less ralkative people are inclined to be, for various reasons, and peel off into pms

11:41 PM <Xallen> Depends

11:42 PM <Violent> If a man wants to use a slave, by all. Means let him work his magic or lack of it... but he damn well better. Contribute to the overall experience of Gor... If he comes back again and again, barely a hello, barely a goodbye.... When the girls inevitably complain about him he's already a piece of shit in my books

11:42 PM <Xallen> I could have come in and demanded cheeri, seeing as how shes marked available

11:43 PM <Xallen> Maybe Violent takes exveption to my rudeness and then we whip out our dicks

11:43 PM <Xallen> Probably not, but it might happen

11:45 PM <~Garen> Ah Gor, where disagreements are worked out by dicksaber battles.

11:45 PM <Xallen> Yeah, were not know for our de escalation skills

11:45 PM — Serenity grins at the visuals in her head and just listens.

11:46 PM <Xallen> Next thing you know, honour is questioned, wo.en get called breeding pigs and i get banned again

11:46 PM <Serenity> We all these rules for girls, but nothing for the men. Do you all think that perhaps that would help?

11:46 PM <Vy`Work> Oh do not let honor be questioned

11:46 PM <Serenity> I don't mean rules, necessarily, but just information, how things work, what is expected of the men.

11:47 PM — Vy`Work looks at Serenity like a duck with a chickens head.

11:47 PM <Serenity> If there were a good, solid group of men here, 5 or more that would take it upon themselves to hold men to those standards, do the mentoring, hold the men accountable, I think we would see a lot of differences.

11:47 PM <Xallen> No rules for men! Youre all read nkz and nfc, why not just make it a no man zone!

11:48 PM <Serenity> I don't mean rules... I meant the other things I mentioned.

11:48 PM <Vy`Work> Right Xallen

11:48 PM <Serenity> "The men of Turia expect a man to........"

11:48 PM <Serenity> Not the slaves, not me - but the men.

11:48 PM <Xallen> Not shit on the rug

11:49 PM — Serenity laughs.

11:49 PM <Serenity> That's a great start.

11:49 PM <Xallen> Thats my golden rule in general

11:50 PM <Violent> When Goreans get the idea that honor is involved they suddenly become quite difficult to deal with. -Magicians Of Gor

11:51 PM <Vy`Work> Because the issue with that is this. What me and lets say Violent agree on Garen and Xallen may not agree with.

11:52 PM <~Garen> I think honor is having a belief of what is right and acting in accordance with that belief. It's up to each man to determine what is honorable.

11:52 PM <Serenity> Then I'll listen and find something that's common ground. I can extrapolate what is said, and perhaps we can at least try. This will give the men that come into Gor, and into Turia at least some idea.

11:52 PM <Xallen> Mmmmm

11:53 PM <Xallen> Like scheming with lara, eh Garen?

11:53 PM — ~Garen grins

11:53 PM <Vy`Work> Ai Garen you and I have had that conversation.

11:53 PM <Vy`Work> Ooo

11:53 PM <Vy`Work> Scheming?

11:54 PM <~Garen> A few bottles of wine and in exchange I'll tie her to a post when she next visits, until her owner comes to plea for her return?

11:54 PM <Serenity> It's better than "I hope they get it." which is kinda where I live.

11:54 PM <~Garen> I think that's well in line with my caste, a merchant striking a bargain much to his own favor.

11:54 PM — Vy`Work laughs

11:56 PM <Xallen> Just grow sustainably, Serenity

11:56 PM <Vy`Work> I could do it for you for a silver or two. *taps his chin*

11:56 PM <Xallen> Gor is one of thosr things you know, has to be learned more than taught