Class/Discussion - Guest of Honor Speaking - Kyrerus of Port Kar. Topic: What is a serve?

<&Serenity> What port is xxxchatters?

<&Serenity> 6669?

<yuna{G}> 6667 I think

<winyela{Gdl}> 6667 Lady

<yuna{G}> Oh my gosh. Is what I think happening happening..

<yuna{G}> Nevermind.

<aylin> well now i wanna know

<sadie{T}> 6697 I have

<yuna{G}> Are we having a visitor ..

<sadie{T}> is it Santa Claus?

→ Kyrerus joined (Kyrerus@49F85DE2.F4CB16D8.F5922EDD.IP)

<&Serenity> Thank you.

— &Serenity smiles.

<&Serenity> Tal, Kyrerus!

<&Serenity> !down

mode: Serenity (de-opped, demoted from admin)

<Kyrerus> Oh shit that's a name I recognize

<Serenity> Welcome to Turia!

<Kyrerus> Words I'd never think I would enjoy hearing.

— sadie{T} smiles. "Good evening, Master Kyrerus!"

<Serenity> And the lovely group of slavegirls that are here to soak up all of your wisdom and knowledge like little sponges!

— yuna{G} beams at Master Kyrerus. "Greetings, Master!"

<Kyrerus> mmmm sponge cake

<freshey{O}> greetings, Master

— aylin looks kindly to Master Kyrerus

<winyela{Gdl}> Greetings Master Kyrerus

<aylin> greetings, Master

<Kyrerus> Alright, so, a bit of background

<Grendel> Tal Kyrerus

<Serenity> Today's class is about "What is the purpose of a serve." And our special guest, who isn't actually dead, even though rumors have floated about on the contrary. The one and only, very old and grumpy Kyrerus is our special guest!

<Kyrerus> I'm not that grumpy.

<Kyrerus> I'm grumpier.

— yuna{G} giggles.

<Serenity> If we're using the Grand Canyon as the measuring stick, yep.

— sadie{T} is willing to accept grumpish and believe it

<Kyrerus> Let's talk about background first, so you can understand the context from which I am going to speak. More than 20 years ago, I managed to wander my way into a little pervy IRC room that had this thing called Gor. And I was young, dumb, and full of cum, and so I decided to stay for a bit. And I fucked up. I fucked up hard.

→ hope` joined (sid129789@xchat-33D6767E.irccloud.com)

— Serenity gathers all the girls around Kyrerus and listens.

— winyela{Gdl} listens quietly on Masters furs

— hope` scoots in quietly and settles to the slave mats

<Kyrerus> But, I stuck with it, and eventually found a great community, found out this was based on an actual sci-fi book series, and I started reading, making more mistakes, fucking up more, but generally, learning and observing and finding ways to turn my fuckups and experiences into something that, for me at least, was more interesting and enjoyable.

<Kyrerus> I have seen this community at its greatest.

<Kyrerus> I have seen it at its worst.

mireille{T}afk → mireille{T}

— mireille{T} slips quietly to Lady Serenity’s furs and settles to listen.

→ mari joined (mari@xchat-A8ADA93C.hsd1.il.comcast.net)

<Kyrerus> I've since moved on to other pastures, but the core problems, pitfalls, and struggles remain to this day, and Serenity has asked me to come lecture about one of the iconic interactions in our community, and its context within those struggles and pitfalls--the *serve*

<Kyrerus> So.

— Serenity smiles, waving mari and mireille{T} to come settle and listen.

<Kyrerus> I have a question. No answer is too wrong to say. "What, girls, is a serve?"

— mari smiles comes and kneels listening

— winyela{Gdl} raises her hand.

<Kyrerus> *points to winyela.* You.

<winyela{Gdl}> Its a way to be pleasing to get to know someone and to entertain Master

— hope` backspaces and raises her hand for next

<Kyrerus> *points to hope* And you?

freshey{O} → freshey{O}`serving

<hope`> A serve can be anything offered or commanded. A dance, beverage, food, conversation etc etc

— freshey{O}`serving will come right back

<Serenity> Okay freshey.

— mari smiles agreeing with them both

<hope`> The bidding of the Free peoples.

<Kyrerus> There are aspects of that answer I like, but anyone else have something to add?

— mari raises her hand

<@Violent> Tal Kyrerus

<@Violent> Long time no see

<Kyrerus> mari, of the four letter name, go

<mari> thank You

<Kyrerus> Violent, it has been.

<Kyrerus> Tal, my friend.

<@Violent> Guest of Honor

<Kyrerus> I'm of Port Kar, 'honor' is such a weird word to use for me. *He grins playfully*

— Serenity grins.

<@Violent> Skewered...

<mari> mari thinks that a serve is anything that helps light or cause to burn hotter the fire in a slaves belly it raises the need to please to all Free and in every aspect of a slave working or playing

<Kyrerus> There are nuggets of truth in all three answers, and I shall take the time to explore the nuances in difference between all three. For now, I'm going to say you're all right, and also, not quite right.

— hope` raises her hand quickly

— mari listens closely as she turns to smile at MAster VIlent saying on a soft breeze

<mari> greetings Master

<hope`> hope has one more thing now that she's had a moment to stew if she may?

<mari> ugh Violent

— winyela{Gdl} tilts her head listening

<Kyrerus> My definition, which is dry, is 'A serve is the activity where a slave is performing some task for a Master, wherein the slave and Master are interacting and exploring the relationship between them in the interplay of power exchange through the metaphor of the task performed.'

<Kyrerus> Yes, hope?

<hope`> well hope was going to say that she supposes that.. this more applies to collared slaves that one could say you're constantly serving

<hope`> To prove your home/owner proud and bring honor to their name and all that good stuff

<Kyrerus> Well, hope, I'm going to correct you on a small matter.

— hope` tips her head, mahagony tresses spilling around her, fingers twining into the ends as she listens

<Kyrerus> Uncollared slaves are still subject to the whim and law of the Gorean public at large. So they are still 'always serving.' And collared slaves are still subject to the discipline of the public at large. Thus, there is still accountability and 'always on-ness.'

<Kyrerus> Bear in mind, I'm saying this with a very 'YMMV' disclaimer--not all communities or forms of Gorean expression apply that. But, if one is 'by the book' as it were, and honest, the omni-discipline is present in some form.

ItalianStallion → ItalianStallion|shower

<Kyrerus> But I digress

<Kyrerus> I want to talk about the three definitions you gave, because they delightfully lead me into the next point.

<Kyrerus> win's answer is very Master-centric. Her answer is about doing something for the Master.

— winyela{Gdl} smiles softly

<Kyrerus> hope, her answer focuses on the task--it focuses on the action that is commanded. mari, I'll note, discusses the feeling the slave feels, and the exploration of the woman performing the action.

<Kyrerus> This brings to light the three pillars, the three fundamentals of excellent servitude.

<Kyrerus> 1) The Master

<Kyrerus> 2) The slave in context to the Master

<Kyrerus> 3) The task performed.

— mari listens

<Kyrerus> Every great serve has been about, played with, and explored the three fundamentals. Every great serve has to involve all three to be good.

<Kyrerus> So... let's talk about a negative.

<Kyrerus> How do you know a serve has failed?

— mari raises hand

<Kyrerus> *nods to mari*

— Kyrerus remembers how emotes work in this space, it's all coming back.

— Serenity laughs

— Serenity looks to the girls for their answers.

<mari> when the Master or Mistress is displeased or you do not pay enough attention to the Free in question or a girl doesn't try her best

— yuna{G} raises her hand next!

<winyela{Gdl}> Raises her hand after yuna

<Kyrerus> yuna. go.

— sadie{T} raises a 3rd hand!

<Kyrerus> then win, then sadie.

<yuna{G}> I feel like I failed a serve if the Master isn't engaged and interacting with me, and if I get sent back to the furs after!

<Kyrerus> *claps his hands*

<Kyrerus> Put a pin on that answer. win? sadie?

<winyela{Gdl}> She had the same answer

— mireille{T} agrees with yuna.

— hope` raises her hand

<sadie{T}> to be fair, my answer was basically the same as yuna's: a lack of interaction and interest from the Master

<Kyrerus> I love that answer.

<Kyrerus> Let's explore it!

<Kyrerus> Let's say for sake of argument I'm some new guy, walking in to #Turia for the first time, and you don't know me from Adam or Jack FUCKING Palance.

— yuna{G} giggles.

— necia sneaks back in and quietly settles to slave mats

<Kyrerus> And I sit down somewhere, and I say 'you, female flesh, pretty creature, I task you to bring me black wine'

<Kyrerus> And you work your ASS off.

<Kyrerus> You do your heckin best

→ Kelerion joined (Kelerion@The.Tuchuk.Plains)

<Kyrerus> And you come back, and you raise it up and you give your puppy dog eyes and your perky tittiest offer and you extol how awesome I am and how amazing your day is that you got to bring me a fuckin coffee

<Kyrerus> And my response is

<Kelerion> Tal and greetings Peeps and peepettes

— Kyrerus pats her head and takes the coffee, and waves her away

<Serenity> Tal, Kelerion - We're having an Open class/discussion about "What is a serve."

<Kyrerus> Tal!

— necia looks to Master Kelerion with a smile

<Kelerion> ah... ok

<necia> greetings Master

— hope` wiggles a little and laughs

— mari riases her hand

<Kyrerus> How does that feel as a slave?

— Kelerion nods and listens

— winyela{Gdl} smiles to Master Kelerion

<Kyrerus> Yes mari?

— hope` peers to Master Kyrerus and raises her hand too

<Kyrerus> hope after mari

<yuna{G}> That feels super lame, Master.

<Kyrerus> super lame!

<Kyrerus> MEGA BUMMER

— winyela{Gdl} raises her hand.

<mireille{T}> It feels like failure.

<Kyrerus> Don't bother raising hands when I ask a question, just speak up.

<mari> mari thinks it feels un needed or that you have disappointed the Master in some way but also it could just mean that He was called away unexpectedly and has to attend to something in real life or it could mean that He sees someone He likes come in and that's ok for He is Free

— necia feels like a wasted effort

<winyela{Gdl}> Maybe the Free wishes to converse with men and a slave isnt his interest at that time

<hope`> so.. hope is going to put something out there that.. is probably the opposite of everyone

<Kyrerus> Shoot hope, please do.

— Serenity takes note of who is not responding.

<aylin> i feel like i have served well in bringing what he asked.

<sadie{T}> it feels very much like a disparity of 'attention'.

<hope`> if hope brings your blackwine and you take it ans wave her off.. she has still done her duty and honestly doesn't mind being waved off and generally hopes that is the goal

<aylin> however, i may speak more and not just wave away.

— Kyrerus listens.... takes in the answers... stroking his beard in thought.

<Kyrerus> aylin. Elaborate.

<mari> it could just be that the Free releases you so that you may go serve others

<yuna{G}> I just can't imagine that virtual coffee is what the Master really wanted out of that interaction. lol

— @Violent grins at yuna

<@Violent> Bingo

<aylin> i would offer more, Master. knowing me, tease some too in hopes of bringing more interaction from him.

<Kyrerus> aylin, I am going to comment on that.

<Kyrerus> It sounds to me that you are willing to accept a man's judgment, but... you're not gonna go down fighting

— aylin nods and tries not to be beard stroking focused

— sadie{T} giggles

<Kyrerus> That is awesome.

<Kyrerus> Let me talk about the man's point of view on this, and this may give you some insight on what we're doing and why. Not men like Violent, because fuck it, he rules his roost and I ain't gonna shit on his castle.

<Kyrerus> I mean men like SpoopyAssassin69

— aylin laughs

— yuna{G} giggles.

<Kyrerus> Some of us, and I'm being generous when I say this, don't always know what to do with your attention when we have it.

— mari giggles as she thinks He means trolls or wankers

— sadie{T} grins

<Kyrerus> Some men don't know how to engage with a slave, or we're tired and don't want to deal with it, or we don't want to feel like we're not contributing our side of the power exchange.

<Kyrerus> So

<Kyrerus> We send you off to type up some busywork.

— sadie{T} nods thoughtfully

<Kyrerus> Then you come back and we feel we have to give up some sort of reward cause... you know... ya did good.

<Kyrerus> So we give you a headpat and send you on your way.

— aylin awwws

— mireille{T} listens and lets that thought ruminate.

<Kyrerus> It's--from our point of view--a form of performative politeness.

— mari laughs thinkg that has happened to her laughs out right

<Kyrerus> And a lot of Gorean M/s interaction has been tainted and ruined by performative politeness.

— hope` quirks a brow

<Kyrerus> Cause in point. I'm about to trigger a wave of bad feelings and ptsd.

<Kyrerus> Are you ready? Trigger warning.

<hope`> welll hope doesn't want to be a fun killer but she really truly doesn't mind performative politeness

<Grendel> Cool. I don’t have to do it

<Serenity> Lots of assumptions have been made by performative politeness.

<Kyrerus> "You served well, now see to the rest of the room."

<yuna{G}> Lol!

— sadie{T} groans

— winyela{Gdl} smiles up to her owner

<aylin> barf

— aylin erases that

<Kyrerus> No no, you did it, it stands.

— aylin giggles.

<aylin> that's typically saved for Lady Serenity's pm, Master.

<Kyrerus> And I'm not here to judge you on it, I'm here to openly state that it sucks

<hope`> I mean..

— Serenity smiles.

<hope`> I disagree

<Kyrerus> You can disagree, hope.

<hope`> but hope is a weirdo

<Kyrerus> But you'll be wrong.

<Kyrerus> And here's why

<hope`> how can her feelings be wrong?

— hope` spies Master Kelerion quietly

— freshey{O}`serving slips back in, listening

<Kyrerus> Because it's not feelings. It's an opinion about a serving culture that can, and has, been tested, and the results put under the microscope.

<Kyrerus> You're entitled to have any opinion you want. But testable opinions can be shown to be wrong, or toxic.

<Kyrerus> In this case, 'Serve the room' is toxic. I'll explain why.

— necia listens quietly

<hope`> maybe it's not good for many..

<Kyrerus> It's not good for any.

<hope`> But it is good for her.

<Kyrerus> And I'll get into it.

← Resitor left (4435d205@xchat-288EB4FD.clients.kiwiirc.com)

<Kyrerus> Let's talk about it from the point of view of the man

<mari> well that depends on what happens after

— yuna{G} listens.

<Grendel> The alcoves were currently in use, each belted shut from the inside. Gorean males do not hasten with their pleasure. A private master will often devote several Ahn to his slave. After all, she is his to do with as he pleases, and he owns her. - Quarry of Gor

<Kyrerus> And Violent can back me up on this

<Kyrerus> And Grendel as well (Tal, by the way!)

<hope`> hope likes the head pat and the wave off.. that way there are no false pretenses

— Serenity listens.

<mari> i have seen a girl give a lot then been released only to have someone called upon to serve immediatle afterward now that sucks cause you know you screw up

<Grendel> If a girl is only offering a drink, I do not need her to dally.

<Kyrerus> When you're in a room where 'Serve the Room' is in place, and you're a man, you feel it.

— sadie{T} tilts her head curiously

<Kyrerus> There is an oppressive aura about the place. You feel it, in your bones, that you're not worth their time.

<Kyrerus> You get a girl. She is desperately seeking some sort of attention or validation. Some sort of human contact.

<Serenity> Or "the room" definitely takes precedence over any one individual.

— Serenity continues to listen.

<necia> is it not better to be waved off than left to sit idly by a man's side

<mari> hmmm

— winyela{Gdl} listens quietly

<Serenity> Listen, girls.

<Kyrerus> But you know the second you devote even a slight second of attention beyond the scope of the coffee-bring, someone is going to be like Umbridge, and go 'ehhmmm hmmm' and indicate that you are fucking out of line for having a girl at your feet.

<Kyrerus> So you accept this. And the girls spend their time either fucking about in the kitchen, or fucking about on the pillows.

<mari> well that is just Gor its been that way for years Master

<Kyrerus> I know, mari, and it's wrong.

<Kyrerus> It was like this over a decade ago when I wrote about the Meatgrinder (my term for this style of service), and it's still true today in many places.

<winyela{Gdl}> Is curious Master if it is slaves that have made the mistake or men

<Kyrerus> That's a good question, win.

— mireille{T} listens.

<mari> mari knows that at times her heart burns hotter then at other times and at times she just wants to please Everyone in the room one at time with food drink or a dance

<Kyrerus> My answer is very complicated, so I'll backburner it

<Kyrerus> If we strip down John Norman's philosophy, with regard to sexual relations, there is a common theme and I think it needs to be mentioned as to why 'serve the room/Meatgrinder' is wrong, and toxic.

— mari giggles thinking furing is the least of my thoughts when i serve

— Grendel listens with great interest

<Kyrerus> John Norman writes, in his books, that the cause of sexual relation dysfunction, is the increasing reliance on performative politeness--on following society's rules on how people should act towards each other--at the expense of individual exchange that is fulfilling to the people involved.

<Grendel> Where does he write this please Kyrerus?

<Kyrerus> Good question.

<Grendel> I think so also

ItalianStallion|shower → ItalianStallion-Oot-n-Aboot

— mari looks to Master ItalianStallion and says

<mari> greetings Master

<Kyrerus> He talks about it at the beginning of Fighting Slave of Gor, in the conversation between Jason and Beverly. He couches it as an anti-feminist thing, but the core of it is really the performative politeness. I am paraphrasing a bit, and expanding the scope beyond political correctness.

<mari> welcome back

<Serenity> mari... we don't greet during class.

<mari> yes Lady she wasn't aware she will stop thank You for telling me

<Serenity> Now listen to Kyrerus. Focus.

<Grendel> The beginning of Fighting Slave is two people of Earth conversing. So it’s not either Jason or Beverly speaking?

<Kyrerus> He also mentions it in Marauders of Gor, when Tarl is poisoned, and he struggles with the differences between Gorean and Earth moralities. When he describes Earth as the 'morality of the weak', he is refering to the false pretenses and politenesses we put up to protect each other from emotional distress, even at the expense of being fulfilled.

<Kyrerus> It's both, Grendel--he explores this philosophy through their conversation, and the conflict presented. This conflict continues throughout the narrative of Jason and Bev through Rogue and Guardsman, of course--it's touched upon again when Jason and Bev are cohabitting and free

<Kyrerus> Jason feels that need to be polite and respect Bev, and Bev just wants to be his slave, and this causes a conflict which leads to her lashing out against him.

<Grendel> In a room, with many new to their collars, why would I not give feedback on their serves in a constructive manner? I don’t think that’s a morality issue.

<Kyrerus> Oh of course you would do that.

<sadie{T}> Master, when you say 'performative politeness', could you elaborate a little on what it means and how it relates to the serve?

<Kyrerus> By 'performative politeness' I refer more to the social expectations that force people to distance themselves away from each other that do not truly reflect the core humanity that seek to escape. If you wish to correct a girl, for your own interest, that's definately not performative politeness.

<Grendel> Ok. Carry on. I’ll check the references at my convenience

<Kyrerus> Please do.

<aylin> if we are here and wanting what we desire.. if he wants me there, he should make it so. if i want to be there, i should work at gaining his favor to do so.

<aylin> isn't it that simple?

<Kyrerus> Performative politeness would be... rather... if she bores you, and you tell her 'you did a good serve' because you feel it is expected of you.

<Kyrerus> It should be that simple, yes aylin

<sadie{T}> ahhh - understood - thank you, Master!

<Grendel> As a guest in a home though. I really wouldn’t be correcting her for my own interest, as much as contributing to the house, without undermining their authority. That’s my perspective

<Kyrerus> And that is where I disagree, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> Let me find the exact catchphrase

<mari> mari prefers to know what she messed up on so she can serve Him better another time if the serve was to long or to short or just not focused in WHat He sees as Gorean experience

<Kyrerus> From Players: '"Any Free Man may discipline an insolent or errant slave," I said, "even one who is the least bit displeasing, even one he might merely feel like disciplining. If she is killed, or injured, he need only pay compensation to her Master, and that only if the Master can be located within a specific amount of time and requests such compensation." In virtue of such customs and statutes

<Kyrerus> the perfect discipline under which Gorean slaves are kept is maintained and guaranteed even when they are not within the direct purview of their Masters or their appointed agents.'

<mari> she wishes to learn those of the home she can improve

<Grendel> You think a guest correcting house slaves to his own liking, without regards to how they are trained, could be considered counter productive,

<mari> so she can improve

<Kyrerus> If a slave is trained in a manner that she is not flexible to the needs of her use-Master, she is not trained well, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> And I feel, as a man of Port Kar, no desire to respect bad training.

<Grendel> If I am in a low paga tavern expecting trained pleasure slaves, I should lower my expectations

<mari> if a girl has no home and is new she may not know she is bad if she isn't corrected she will never know

<Kyrerus> If, however, she is trained to be flexible, then me correcting her--personalizing my experience with her--is exercising the skills she is taught. She should be clever enough to recognize them as 'personalized experience'

<Kyrerus> I do not lower my expectations to suit the mediocrity of lesser men, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> Particularily given most are not of my Home Stone.

— mari listens

<Kyrerus> If it becomes a problem that I teach a girl how to communicate with me personally, that sounds like a 'them' problem, and not a 'me' problem.

<Kyrerus> I've seen too many places shit the bed to respect their bed.

— winyela{Gdl} tilts her chocolate and pink curls with the bow on top

<mireille{T}> Personally I’d like that from Men, It’s hard to learn if you don’t get any feedback.

→ BlackBolt joined (uid482285@xchat-33D6767E.irccloud.com)

<Kyrerus> But... there is also a place to temper correction with mercy.

<Kyrerus> The idea is to education, and personalize, not to overlord.

<Kyrerus> Like cutting down the bullshit--the idea is to teach a girl, any girl, how to make you happy. Like... that shouldn't fucking be a big deal.

<Kyrerus> I'm way off topic here, but it needs be said

<@Violent> Lol

<@Violent> Well said

— @Violent wishes he wasn't at work

<Kyrerus> We, as men, in the community, have to do our part, and have to each girls how to make us happy (note: Not avoid us being unhappy), and we need to accept that sometimes girls need to do different things for different dudes and this is ok.

<@Violent> Service and pleasure

<Kyrerus> Yes, and 'interaction'

<Serenity> Tal, BlackBolt - we are in the middle of a class/discussion. You are welcome to join.

<mireille{T}> It sometimes feels like walking about in the dark, trying to make a Man happy when you don’t know them and they’re not offering up feedback, it seems impossible at times.

<Kyrerus> So let's revert back to the context of the serve, and rejectin

<BlackBolt> Tal Serenity ... i'll chime in if i feel the desire

<Kyrerus> Every serve ends with a closure

— aylin smiles with bright brown eyes sparkingly and hopeful to Master BlackBolt

<Kyrerus> You know, that shit girls say, their 'thank you for letting me serve here's your blackwine my life is complete now i can die a happy slave because i got to add two sugars' or whatever

— yuna{G} giggles.

<Kyrerus> I want each girl to give me their best serve 'words' or whatever you want to call it.

<winyela{Gdl}> Smiles

<Serenity> May this drink quench your thirst as my thirst for serving any other way than this strangles the life out of me.

<BlackBolt> what is the topic?

<Serenity> "What is a serve."

<mari> hmm mari doesn't think a girl she should beg to be seen she either is or isn't and it is place to be content in whatever basically mari just says here is your drink more or less

— BlackBolt tries not to make a tennis pun

<Kyrerus> This will relate to something brought up previously, I promise, by the way

— necia hopes the drink is refreshing and pleasing

<winyela{Gdl}> May a girl be able to spend a little more time with you Master and offer more of herself

— mari sits back and listens she doesn't want to miss the lesson

<@Violent> Lol

<sadie{T}> "Your black wine made with muddy water and gloop, Master - she hopes you find it refreshing!"

<Kyrerus> Fuck yes, mudwater and gloop

<mari> lol

<mireille{T}> May this drink quench your thirst and tantalise your taste buds and may it awaken you this bright morning.

— mireille{T} laughs at sadie.

— mari thinks some of the things she does have a lot to do from her training to a certain Master in the past

<@Violent> Every man is different, each is a blank canvas to learn

<aylin> aylin brings you blackwine, Master. she hopes it will be as refreshing to you and as satisfying as moist folds on your lips.

<@Violent> And learn well, if you want to succeed

<yuna{G}> Here's your blackwine, Master, sweet and creamy just like me!

<Kyrerus> I think winyela has the best for the purpose I'm going to go over.

— mari thinks back to another time and says

<Kyrerus> yuna also hits something good

— sadie{T} saves her gloop serve for someone special.

<mari> Master has mari has brought You blacckwine the bowl is pressed to her lips before being offered eyes lowered as she prays to the Priest Kings that it suits Him

<winyela{Gdl}> Grins at sadie

<Kyrerus> So, what do winyela, and yuna to a more subtextual extent, do, exactly, that's different?

<sadie{T}> they offer themselves as well as the drink

— aylin nods in agreement

<Kyrerus> That's one way of putting it, but I want to delve a bit deeper. Good answer, but I think there's something even more interesting at play.

— mari thinks for aminute and realizes that she has spent so much time as a personal that she doesn't express herself well in her need to serve anymore

<aylin> yunas offering is a more implied

→ LionHeart joined (gorean@circle.of.steel)

<Kyrerus> Or more exactly, let's ask the question 'Why is it good to offer themselves?'

<@Violent> Tal LionHeart

— aylin smiles to the door

<@Violent> Welcome

<Kyrerus> Tal Captain!

— LionHeart ambles in, and finds a place to settle in

— Serenity smiles beautifully.

<hope`> It is if you mean it Master

<Serenity> Tal, LionHeart and welcome.

<@Violent> Three Karians under one roof, youre all fucked now

<LionHeart> Tal Captains!

<Kyrerus> It's been a long time, Brother!

<LionHeart> Damnation

— Serenity laughs!

<hope`> But I won't set false expectations for anyone so.. if you don't mean it don't offer it

— mari bites her tongue so she doesn't greet lol

<winyela{Gdl}> Its a move to get a response they want more time and to give more

<LionHeart> That it has, only Serenity could have arranged something like that, lol

<LionHeart> I hope you're well, Brother Ky

<Kyrerus> Serenity reached out to me on Discord, having stumbled into something I'm tangentally involved in

— Serenity laughs and laughs!

← BlackBolt left (uid482285@xchat-33D6767E.irccloud.com)

<Kyrerus> I am doing well.

<Kyrerus> Currently running a clinic.

— Kyrerus indicates the room

— LionHeart laughs merrily, out-standing

<LionHeart> I'll kibbitz from the peanut gallery from time to time ;) .

— Serenity sits back quietly, smiling to her soul at the men gathered and listens.

<Kyrerus> So, going back to the question at hand--winyela and yuna both 'offer the girl' as well as the drink, but let's actually explore, fundamentally, why this is a good technique, and what strike at the core of what makes this good. It's really simple, but it's often unsaid. So let's explore it, get it said!

<Kyrerus> Please do, Brother, much of my theory comes from your own.

<Kyrerus> Credit where credit due.

<yuna{G}> To show that we are interested and eager to spend time with the Master?

<Kyrerus> kinda, but it's really even more simple than that. winyela?

<Kyrerus> ACtually no, yuna, that's actually better than I thought

<Kyrerus> I'll go with that

<aylin> to be sure they know it's an option?

<LionHeart> Not an issue, I'm just enjoying being in the same room with 3 other Karians again, tho one of us might be hard-pressed to admit it [grin]

<Kyrerus> It shows that you want to be there, and you don't want it to end.

<Kyrerus> Isn't that called a 'raid?'

— winyela{Gdl} smiles

— mari thinks to herself she has finely realized that she makes herself unavailbable by placing her hands palms down every single time she serves maybe that think as a slave she is not being true to herself

<Kyrerus> mari, that's incorrect.

<mari> oh

<Kyrerus> Making yourself sexually available through an action such as palms up, can actually be seen as insincere in a society where every girl is taught to do that as a matter of course.

<Kyrerus> *Performative politeness*

<mari> mari actually wouldn't do that unless she meant it

<Kyrerus> GOod.

<Kyrerus> It makes when you do so have so much more impact.

<mari> it takes time to serve sexually sometimes hours and she doesn't always have the time to give

<Kyrerus> Of course. But I want to actually point to the gesture itself

<hope`> hope never does that.

<Kyrerus> What has more impact

<Kyrerus> To always knee palms up

<Kyrerus> Or... to kneel palms down... then palms turn up as a reaction to something the man says or does?

— yuna{G} grins.

<sadie{T}> ooh I like that

— hope` doesn't even think anyone knows what her palms look like

<mari> hmmm

<Kyrerus> Notice there's a common thread amongst all of this.

<Kyrerus> It's not about 'doing the serve right'

<Kyrerus> It's about finding a way to communicate with the man. It's about inviting communication and it's about responding in kind when communicated to.

<winyela{Gdl}> Is it about communicating Master

— necia has only bared her palms less than a handful of times

— winyela{Gdl} shuts up

<Kyrerus> Ahaha

<Kyrerus> Yes, win, it is.

<Kyrerus> Serenity prepared something of mine that I didn't know would bite me in the ass years later, but let's have it!

— Serenity :)

— yuna{G} giggles.

— mari snickers

— mireille{T} grins as she listens

<Serenity> Just a nibble, perhaps a bite later if you stick around with these very eager girls!

<Serenity> What is the purpose of a serve?

<Serenity>

<Serenity> -Entertain and invite interaction-

<Serenity>

<Serenity> The slave girl, unnamed, approached the man, and knelt before him. She was nervous, scared, for she had heard rumors this man would accept no error. She looked up at him, looked into his eyes, for this was the first sign if he was displeased. She swallows, and takes a deep breath. "Master, a slave wishes to wet your thirst. Task her." She looked up at him, small, vulnerable, in his power. Would he task her? Or would

<Serenity> he crush her under his heel with a negation and rejection?

<Serenity>

<Serenity> <Master tasks>

<Kyrerus> pause

<Kyrerus> Notice how that asks a question of a man, narratively. It creates suspense.

<Kyrerus> It draws him in. It includes him.

<Kyrerus> Continue, please.

— Serenity continues.

<Serenity> She bowed forward, kissing his foot, genuflecting with all the passion her little hard could. He chose not to break her heart, but this was the more terrifying outcome. She was more in his thrall and she didn't know whether to run or dive in. The drink. Get the drink. She stood before him, hoping he could not see how her nipples peaked in her growing excitement. She croaked out a response but no words would come. DAMN

<Serenity> IT. SPEAK GIRL! She couldn't. Instead the flushed creature spins off... slowly heading to the kitchen. Her legs never moved so slow... it was as if she didn't want to leave. But she had to... her ass was turned towards him and if she did not move, he could swat it or beat her. So she walked... and walked slowly, her hips wriggling... like a cat in heat. She couldn't help it.

<Serenity>

<Serenity> ---At this point, the man CAN respond. There's invitation for it, so the slave *waits* for a response.

— sadie{T} rubs her hands together and smiles with anticipation

<Kyrerus> Yes. And this is key--let the man DO something about what you do.

<Kyrerus> Invite interaction, give him power and let him exercise it

— necia listens making notes

— mireille{T} feels a light bulb go off.

— mari hmm thinks let your instincts take over

— Serenity glances to Kyrerus.

<yuna{G}> That is a very different style than we use!

<necia> I like it though

<yuna{G}> Me too!

<sadie{T}> if that man didn't smack her bum, then there's something wrong with him!

<mari> lmao

<Serenity> lol

<sadie{T}> ... just saying >_>

— necia giggles

<mireille{T}> Lol

<Kyrerus> Please do continue, Serenity, you already nailed the commentary

— Serenity nods and continues.

<Serenity> He didn't swat her, but that chuckle of his was like a jackhammer to her heat. Why is she like this? Finally her words come to her as she reaches the kitchen with the pot girls. "Hurry, sluts, get me the paga, get! Master Biggusdickus is thirsty for drink! I am thirsty for Biggusdickus!" She blushes at the confession. Urt-dar laughs, after all, one must not keep Biggusdickus waiting. While she waits for the pot girls

<Serenity> to do what pot girls do, she looked out, and glanced longingly at the Master... would be be gentle in the alcoves? Rough? Her reverie was snapped by a potgirl handing her the bowl. "Took you long enough, stupid girl." She then left the kitchen, and was once more trapped by the gravity of Biggusdickus as she began the return to her current home at his feet.

— mari thinks she's been on Gor for twenty years and is still learning

— mari feels learning never ends for a slave girl

— LionHeart smiles

<Kyrerus> So, Serenity has some of my commentary as well

<Kyrerus> Please let'er'rip, Serenity

— Serenity smiles and does.

<Serenity> ---Again, MORE he can respond to.

<Serenity>

<Serenity> Notice the intent of the post.

<Serenity> It's not to show she knows how to work the kitchens.

<Serenity> It's to show she wants to entertain the man she is serving.

<Serenity> The entire focus on her posts is on him, not the task. The task serves as way for interaction, not a replacement of.

<Serenity>

<Serenity> The serve is often your first impression and point of interaction.

<Serenity> You can show the man that you know all the right words, know how to get Gorean things from Gorean kitchens, or you can choose plot hooks, invitations for interactions, responses, draw him in, garner his interest.

<Serenity> One thing is certain, you are there to serve men, men are not there to serve you.

<mari> may she afk so she doesn't miss anything til she returns in abit

<Serenity> Some of my words are sprinkled in there as well, so if you disagree with anything said there, Kyrerus, please feel free to correct it.

<Kyrerus> There's a bit I want to add as well, because there's some context that isn't included

<Kyrerus> So this lesson is given in the context of a serving 'meta' that involves the girl taking an order, and disappearing into the kitchen for a million years, before showing up 'surprise here's a drink can I go now?'

<Kyrerus> And this is part of a wider lesson--'don't fucking spend a year in the kitchen.' This part is taking the most boring part of the serve... condensing it... and doing what little the girl can to make it involving and interesting.

<Kyrerus> Please continue.

— Serenity continues.

— mari life is happening and she must go hopefull she won't get in trouble

<Serenity> She approaches... slowly.. deliberately. Her breasts bounced, her nipples hardening with each step towards him. She had a bit of a glow, a bit of sweat as she got closer and closer. Damn it why is this man's aura hotter than the kitchen?! She was drawn to him, her eyes looking him over. Some men hated that, well, too bad. He was handsome and if he didn't want her to look he could command her. Take it up with the

<Serenity> Priest-kings, they made this hunk!

— yuna{G} giggles!

mari → mariafk

<Serenity> Do you want your commentary as well, Kyrerus?

<Kyrerus> Of course, it actually reflects my most recent philosophy.

— necia listens raptly only now realizing how lack of inviting she is

<Serenity> Notice, she hasn't rushed to his feet. This is -elongating- the serve. This is building to the climax. This is increasing suspense, and rising tension. That is GOOD.

<Serenity> Imagine you're cyberfucking

<Serenity> And you spend twelve posts stripping

<Serenity> and then one post he cums inside you immediately after insertion

<Serenity> No. bad. No.

<Serenity> You're building to a climax.

<Kyrerus> Indeed.

<Kyrerus> The idea as well, is not just master-centric

— Serenity waits to see if all the girls prematurely ejaculate in their serves after this or not.

<Kyrerus> You're doing the build up -for you.-

<Kyrerus> This isn't just about making serves better for men. That's part of it, but it's also about your own fulfillment.

<Kyrerus> Something that often gets neglected--you are here to find some form of fulfillment.

<Kyrerus> Having a serve form that works towards that is not a bad thing, and I'd encourage it.

<Kyrerus> Continue, please.

— Serenity continues.

<Grendel> So where did all this come from? Who is teaching the girls to go to the cold room and describe her nipples hardening? I don’t think girls just randomly and individually decided to write similar kitchen posts….

<Kyrerus> That's a great question, Grendel, and one I'd love to discuss after this, if you do not mind.

<Kelerion> I wish you all a good evening... *waves and heads out*

<Kyrerus> But I will tell you flat out: Not John Norman.

← Kelerion left (Kelerion@The.Tuchuk.Plains)

— LionHeart grins, it wasn't him either

<Serenity> Finally she reached him, she melted before him, a puddle at his feet. Her knees were spread, but she wasn't sure if it was because she was a slave in a paga tavern or if they just couldn't stay closed near him. It didn't matter. She looked up at him... and she slowly lifted the drink, slowly over her burning belly... slowly over her breasts, catching a bit on her nipple. Then finally she raised the drink up... words...

<Serenity> she had to say words... what could she say... well... she didn't know what to say, so she asked a question instead. "Your drink, Master; tell me... is it true that a Master can rape a slave who brings him paga?" She bit her lip. Stupid girl, she should know the answer. But... maybe at some level she just needed to hear it from THIS man.

<Kyrerus> Definately not LH.

— sadie{T} blushes at that serve, biting on her lower lip.

<aylin> it's been taught that way for years.

— necia smiles with newfound inspiration

<Serenity> And Kyrerus' commentary:

<Serenity> The climax.

<Serenity> Now notice what the girl does that you -rarely see-

<Serenity> But holy fuck is it so important

<Serenity>

<Serenity> What is it?

— Serenity does not give the answer.

<sadie{T}> she shows her inner thoughts and asks him a question - gets him to engage more

<Kyrerus> That's an open question

<winyela{Gdl}> Shes asking for a respons

<mireille{T}> Asks a question to keep the interaction going, not really inviting a simple dismissal

<mireille{T}> Also shows her ache to be there with him.

<Kyrerus> It tells the man

<Kyrerus> 'This isn't over.'

<Kyrerus> 'Don't let this end.'

<Kyrerus> 'I like it here.'

— yuna{G} beams.

<Kyrerus> 'I'm having fun.'

<Kyrerus> 'Are you?'

<Kyrerus> I'm going to be blunt (and this will relate to what Grendel asks)

<Kyrerus> You are fighting decades of cultural inertia and misunderstanding and male passivity both taught through a lack of male empowerment and a lack of understanding of the male role in the serve dynamic.

<Kyrerus> This is hard, for slaves.

<hope`> And that's fine and well for some people I'd think but not something I'd want to do for 99% of people

<Kyrerus> hope, there's a subtext to what you're saying and I don't want you to think I'm ignoring it.

<Serenity> More Kyrerus thoughts:

<Serenity> That serve example was hot. Extra hot. It doesn't have to be hot. It can be curious, scared, intrigued, panicked, arrogant, alluring, excited, tempered contempt yet obedient, in love, hungry, tempted, etc. It's all good and it's all Gorean.

<Serenity> That may assist you in that thought, Kyrerus.

<Kyrerus> Your job isn't to say 'Yes Master' and do everything according to a playbook.

<Kyrerus> Your job isn't to be 'permahorny'

<Kyrerus> Your job is to be a woman.

<Kyrerus> And being a woman is not a product of simple, unthinking obedience.

<Kyrerus> It's emotional, it's sometimes conflicted, it's complicated. And its beautiful.

<winyela{Gdl}> May i please be excused

<Kyrerus> Yes, win, and I am pleased with your contribution.

<Kyrerus> Very pleased.

— Serenity smiles to winyela{Gdl}.

<winyela{Gdl}> Thank you Master.

<hope`> I think what you say makes a lot of sense Master but.. in terms of day to day hope offering service to people she barely otherwise interacts with?

<hope`> Doesn't much apply she thinks

<Serenity> I wish you well, beautiful.

winyela{Gdl} → winyela{Gdl}AFK

<hope`> At least for herself

<Kyrerus> And I would love to address that, which actually relates to Grendel's question.

<Kyrerus> Why does Gor do it the other way

<Kyrerus> I'm going to tell a story. A true story, as the best stories are.

<Kyrerus> How many girls have done or seen 'The Bazi Tea Serve'?

<Serenity> I disagree with that, hope. This actually shows who you are, in all that you do, whether you now the man or not. Because the same can be applied but instead of "hot" it's "curious".

— LionHeart smiles

— Serenity listens to the story.

— necia raises her hand a moment then lowrs as she listens

<yuna{G}> I got to read someone's Bazi Tea Serve but I never have seen it done!

<aylin> i have only heard of it, Master

<Kyrerus> Keep your hand up, necia

<necia> yes Master

<mireille{T}> I did it once, Master, for a red silks test.

— necia returns her hand to the air

<Kyrerus> Alright, so two have done it, and the rest of you have heard of it.

<sadie{T}> I've seen someone do it, but I had nothing really to compare it to

<hope`> hope has never seen it was told it was a silly ircism

<Kyrerus> It is more than a silly ircism, hope.

<Kyrerus> And it actually touches on Grendel's question.

— necia vaguely remembers it in the books in the deserts

— mariafk peeks in and says according to the books it is done just like any other serve

<Kyrerus> So, the bazi tea serve, as it is commonly practiced in our community, with the fucking long, complicated, hypermetaphorical thing, is correctly identified as not in the books. But there's more to this than just that.

<Serenity> I've actually done the bazi tea serve. Longest serve of my entire life.

<Kyrerus> A long time ago, when I was younger, and less jaded

<Kyrerus> I met a girl. She was a sweet girl, and we talked, as one is wont to do with sweet girls with interesting things to say.

<Kyrerus> And the interesting thing she had to say was how she hated the Bazi Tea Serve.

<Kyrerus> She didn't hate it because it was long.

<Kyrerus> She didn't hate it because it was elaborate.

<Kyrerus> She didn't hate it because it was poetic, or lyrical, or any of the other things we identify with the Bazi Tea Serve.

<Kyrerus> She hated it, because she invented it.

<Kyrerus> She had a Master, and one time she was asked to bring bazi tea. And she knew of the three-cup serve, and she decided to her self 'You know what, it's time to go hard.'

<Kyrerus> And she made the best serve of her entire life.

<mariafk> may mari return please

<Serenity> Yes, mari.

<Kyrerus> Now, imagine that first Bazi Tea Serve, and that slave putting everything into it. The tea has no significance, the ceremony means nothing--it was all her expressing her adoration for a man. And yes, it was beautiful.

<mariafk> thank You Lady

mariafk → mari

<LionHeart> It's an absolutely gorgeous serve

<Kyrerus> It is.

<Kyrerus> And what happens when men see something they like?

<Serenity> Extremely beautiful.

<Kyrerus> 'I WANT THAT.'

<LionHeart> And it offers the man a lot of space to interact with her

<LionHeart> That's what I like about it

<Kyrerus> So men started teaching this serve.

<Kyrerus> But rather than teach it in the context of 'This is an example of a slave going all out for a man, as a special thing, as a moment between him and her'

<Kyrerus> They taught it as a thing a slave just does, automatically, for bazi tea.

<Kyrerus> And then, as these men are wont to do--they beat it to the fucking ground.

— Serenity smiles.

<LionHeart> Oh, and there's one more thing about the serve....... it's based on the Moroccan Tea Ceremony, it is, essentially, an RL serve. And that makes it even better, as far as I'm concerned.

<Kyrerus> The Bazi Tea Serve was Meatgrindered before I even knew of it.

<Kyrerus> It was 'old and stale' before I was.

<Serenity> In time, everything evolves into something different as it changes hands so many times. I still would never hate the serve.

<Kyrerus> Ruined, by becoming mandatory

<Kyrerus> It became rote, it became this ideal of perfection, but what it never became--was about this woman loving this man. And she watched her creation get copied, and destroyed.

<Kyrerus> Blandified, by men going 'I WANT THAT.'

<yuna{G}> Wow.

<Kyrerus> The bazi tea serve isn't special. That care and devotion is special.

— aylin nods and exhales

<Kyrerus> Some girl taking the time to wash her hands, to show she's being diligent for a master for whom that is their love language---became 'always wash your hands in the kitchen.'

<Serenity> I think that's a matter of perspective. We can instill the word "ruined" in a lot of ways, to a lot of things, but pure redundancy, to me, doesn't make it ruined. Care and devotion makes anything special.

<Serenity> Even a simple nadu.

<Kyrerus> Agreed, but I'll get to that in a second.

<mari> mari was thinking about another serve she found cool a girl giving the gift of her heart mind body and soul to her maaste

<mari> Master

<Kyrerus> A girl who got it in her head that her nipples became erect because her master was a perv and she wanted him to enjoy his pervy thing--became 'the cold room made her nipples hard.'

— Serenity laughs!

<aylin> it's what girls are taught to do, Master.

<LionHeart> Girls are always looking for something in their serves that will be unique

<Serenity> I think it's just natural to assume nipples are going to get perky in the cold!

<Kyrerus> The modern serve.... is a synthesis of the love-language of great slaves who came before... distilled for the performative actions, with the context of the love-language removed, because some man saw something he liked, and went 'I WANT THAT' without realizing that what he really wanted was the love language, not the action itself.

<mari> yes but the cold room wouldn't be that cold maybe like a cellar

— Serenity listens to Kyrerus.

<Kyrerus> It may be natural for nipples to become erect in the cold but who fucking cares I'm not a cold room, right?

<Kyrerus> I can't see it, what does it relate to me?

<Kyrerus> Now here's where this goes from bad to worse

<mari> no i noticed that ,many do that when they enter a cold room when in heat a lslaves intire body would come to life

<aylin> it's what we are taught. have been taught and will likely continue to be taught.

<Kyrerus> Let's say I'm new to Gor. Reading through all the books takes a lot of time and effort, and it's a lot to ask of anyone before they participate. So I am going to trust that what I see is authentic. Maybe I only read a couple books. Maybe what I see is in a different book.

<Kyrerus> I'm not going to learn that the proper serve in the books is simple, quick, and really just a part of some greater whole of interaction. I'm going to see the ceremonial, performance, that is the slave's serve, the checklist of things they are taught to do, and I'm going to assume that it is correct.

<Kyrerus> And I'm going to see any deviation from said checklist as 'lack of effort' because those before me call it 'lack of effort' when it is ignored.

<Kyrerus> So when it is my turn to teach... what do I teach?

— sadie{T} nods thoughtfully

<Kyrerus> When it is the girl's turn to teach, what does she teach?

MindFucker`afk → @MindFucker

<Kyrerus> And such, the tragic cultural inertia continues... with people continuing to include things in serves not because it's good, not because it makes anyone happy, not because it makes the serve more enjoyable, but because they're taught to believe it is correct.

<Kyrerus> And once you're taught to believe something is correct--deprogramming that is hard.

<mari> sorry i have to helpo my hubby going afk again if its alirght

<Kyrerus> I hope that answers your question, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> Yes, mari.

<Serenity> Yes, mari.

<mari> thank You MAster

mari → afkmari

<LionHeart> One of things, Ky, that's always disappointed me is when girls lose their eyes

<Kyrerus> Please explain, Brother.

<LionHeart> They substitute gems, and jewels, and such, for eyes

— necia listens curiously

<Kyrerus> Ahahha

<sadie{T}> orbs!

— Serenity laughs!

<Kyrerus> I wouldn't know, most girls don't make eyecontact unless deprogrammed.

<Serenity> I call it "fancy smancy" words.

<LionHeart> The eyes are incredibly expressive in and of themselves, poets have been waxing romantic about them for THOUSANDS of years

<Kyrerus> EYE CONTACT

<LionHeart> And often in irc, they are replaced with 'orbs', yes sadie

<Serenity> Such an unattractive word.

<sadie{T}> faceballs.

— sadie{T} shuts up.

<LionHeart> lol

<Kyrerus> This is a hot take, but eye contact in slaves is good and accurate"

<necia> I always thought to use those for variety

<hope`> Faceballs hahaha

<Serenity> Here's the thing, necia: Men don't actually care about variety.

— Kyrerus chuckles at faceballs

— necia laughs as she nods thinking about that

<Kyrerus> Honestly, we could give a fuck.

<Kyrerus> Serenity is right.

<Kyrerus> Look, here's a bit of full disclosure

<Serenity> All of those frilly words, they don't mean anything when it comes down to it and the more words you use that have nothing to do with the man - the more that leads to a man not even reading hardly any of it.

<Kyrerus> I have seen thousands of serves, without hyperbole.

<Kyrerus> I have received thousands.

<Kyrerus> Whatever newfangled phrase for 'eyes' you have I've seen dozens of times before, years ago.

<Kyrerus> And I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who loves exploring poetic space.

<Kyrerus> Don't try to impress me with your thesaurus.

<Kyrerus> Just try to reach me as a human male person.

<@MindFucker> Yes, that.

⇐ afkmari quit (mari@xchat-A8ADA93C.hsd1.il.comcast.net)

<Grendel> Depending on the culture if the room, and having my expectations lowered in most rooms that I have been in by white knight ops, I can say what you are saying makes a lot of sense on paper. In practice, I will only take what a girl is offering.

<Kyrerus> I can respect your skepticism, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> However, I will turn that around.

<Kyrerus> You do not 'only take what a girl is offering.'

— necia continues to listen raptly, taking this all to heart as she learns more

<Grendel> If I wish to. Yes.

<Kyrerus> You're a man. You are the ubar within the circle of your sword. When a girl kneels before you, you're the boss. You're the manager.

— Grendel laughs. Ok.

<Kyrerus> If her service displeases you, or doesn't please you, you should be empowered to teach her how to make you happy.

<Grendel> I am the Ubar of my own property.

<Kyrerus> That is not the saying.

<Grendel> “We don’t live in books” is the counter argument I have been presented with.

<Kyrerus> The saying is 'Within the circle of his sword, a man is Ubar.'

<Kyrerus> I too have been presented with that counter argument.

<Grendel> Along with stop making slaves feel like shit.

<Kyrerus> Does any girl here feel that I am making them feel like shit?

<necia> no Master

<yuna{G}> No, Master! I am excited.

<hope`> no I do feel like some of what you have said is pretty generalizing

<hope`> But it doesn't make her feel any sort of way

<Kyrerus> Honesty, hope, is pleasing.

<mireille{T}> No Master, not at all, I feel like I’m having my mind and horizons opened up and it’s thrilling

— Serenity smiles to mireille{T}

— sadie{T} smiles. "I've got all sorts of ideas in my head now.."

<aylin> i do not feel like shit, Master

— sadie{T} steeples her fingers and considers the possibilities

<hope`> Well if it's one thing hope has in spades is honesty

<Kyrerus> So, Grendel, I simply put it to you, that if you take it in yor hand, and show a girl how to make you happy she will be thrilled, and excited. It doesn't have to be punishment. It can be fun and instructive and enjoyable.

<Kyrerus> Often you will find resistance, and I do acknowledge that.

<Kyrerus> And you'll even hear the delightful 'You must respect the Home Stone'

— Kyrerus grins at LionHeart at that one.

— LionHeart chuckles

<LionHeart> You must respect my autoritae!

<Kyrerus> Now, I don't know about you, Grendel, or what your Home Stone is, so I cannot, of course, speak for you.

<Kyrerus> But I think LionHeart civitas Port Kar can agree with me, Kyrerus civitas Port Kar...

<Kyrerus> ...that when you're a man of Port Kar, you do not have to respect any Home Stone that is not the one found by Fish.

<Kyrerus> Perhaps your own Home Stone may have similar opinions regarding others.

— Serenity faceballs LionHeart's fancysmancy authoritae.

— sadie{T} giggles

— mireille{T} laughs softly.

<Kyrerus> hope.

<Kyrerus> You mentioned something I want to touch on as well.

— hope` peers over to Master Kyrerus, gray eyes curious as she tugs on mahogany tresses

<hope`> Yes Master?

<Kyrerus> You do not wish to 'fake it'. Yes?

<hope`> no Master she doesn't

<Kyrerus> And I would not ask you to fake it either.

<Kyrerus> But I also would not ask you to hide behind the rote.

<@Violent> Whew... Long day

<hope`> how do you mean Master?

<@Violent> Tal Men

<Kyrerus> The serve, as commonly practiced, is a barrier, not an invitation. Not an opportunity.

<hope`> hmm.. she does agree with that Master largely.. and it is a barrier

<hope`> a barrier hope rather likes

<Kyrerus> You don't have to like every man you come across, fuck it, I wouldn't even ask you to respect every man you come across.

— Serenity smiles hearing Violent and continues to listen to the discussion.

— hope` laughs

<hope`> Well she would never admit it out loud to too many people Master

<Kyrerus> But you'll never find the men you want to react to by presenting them with barriers.

<Kyrerus> That's fine, hope, you don't have to say it. I will. Many men on Gor ain't shit.

<hope`> And if hope doesn't wish to react to any men currently?

<Kyrerus> They ain't worth shit.

<hope`> preach.

<Kyrerus> Define 'react'.

<LionHeart> I'm reminded of a quote from the books, when two men were arguing which group of women were more beautiful, the Free Women of Ar or the Free Women of Cos, both 'highly respected' Home stones in Gor. The response of a man of Port Kar was, "The women of Cos are very beautiful, we enjoy them.... in Port Kar"

<LionHeart> Tal V

→ mouthy{T}work joined (uid499955@xchat-C815E7A8.irccloud.com)

<Kyrerus> ahahaha

<Grendel> Many men on Gor ain’t shit. Very productive.

<@Violent> The novels strongly criticise men of earth... Just because you come in a Gorean chat room and say tal doesn't mean you aren't subject to those critisms unless you apply John Normans teachings

<Serenity> Welcome, mouthy{T}. We're in the middle of class/discussion with the topic being "What is a serve."

<Serenity> No greeting.

<Kyrerus> Yes, Grendel, it is.

<hope`> well.. correct me if I am wrong Master but the way I am interpreting it is.. to feel more slavely? Feel the heat if it were

<Kyrerus> Okay, fair, hope.

<Kyrerus> And you know what... that's okay.

<Grendel> So get out there and serve men who ain’t shit girls!

<Kyrerus> Most men won't make you hot, won't make you a servile bitch. And that is not wrong--that's the reality of the community.

<Kyrerus> Actually Grendel, the message isn't "Go serve men who ain't worth shit"

<Kyrerus> The message is "Let's stop being shit, men."

— Grendel looks around at the men here

<Kyrerus> Like real talk, I don't give a shit what the community does as a whole, for myself. I got mine.

<Kyrerus> I can walk in a room, and I know who and what I am. I know what I am about.

<Grendel> The men you’re probably referring to left long ago because there are no girls serving.

<@Violent> Lol

— Serenity laughs.

<Kyrerus> I see men here.

<necia> I think a reason for the barrier of serves many girls use, is it is easier than having to try to figure out how to deal with the... forgive the language please.... but.... assfuck that wants to accost us

<Kyrerus> 'assfuck that wants to accost us'

<hope`> so Master one might say that hope being a little more aloof to the.. "pleasures" she could partake in isn't wrong?

<Kyrerus> I like that.

— necia giggles

<Serenity> I also think there's something to be said about your earlier comment, Kyrerus. You were being generous in saying, many men do not know what to do with the power slaves give them.

<Serenity> Also, I see a lot of girls just wishing to "show up" and men should just be men. Fairytale and all that.

<Kyrerus> I'm going to say, hope, that you, and your attitude, is not your fault, and it is the product of failed lessons from people that want to 'learn Gor' without learning Gor.

<hope`> Well.. its not, not her fault Master

<Kyrerus> This shit though, this Gor shit

<Kyrerus> It's hard.

— necia steps briefly afk

— necia nick necia`afk

<Kyrerus> It's hard for girls.

<Kyrerus> It's hard for men.

<hope`> she could very well not be so aloof and be more open she does have that capability

<Kyrerus> Right, and many men are not worth it, hope.

<Kyrerus> But...

<Kyrerus> ....many are.

<hope`> hope disagrees.

— aylin smiles

<Kyrerus> The community that made you, Hope, isn't one that gives men a chance to be men.

<Kyrerus> It's threatened by men being men.

<Kyrerus> It's threatened by honesty from girls.

<Kyrerus> That's not Gorean.

<hope`> she would say that -maybe- a couple people would be alright to let those barriers down a little bit

freshey{O}`serving → freshey{O}

<Kyrerus> So I get it--I empathize with your position. It is impossible to present a girl with a society that pretends to be Gorean, and expect her to understand Gor. And girls, you do need to know how to protect yourself, and use barriers when appropriate when an 'assfuck' comes along. Cause there's tonnes of assfucks.

<Kyrerus> Maybe, hope. And you know what? Those are the people Gor is for.

<Kyrerus> Gor is not for everyone.

<hope`> Not like too much ya know not like in a slutty way because I will live and die on the hill that I will not fur people

<Grendel> So how do you suggest men become worth a shit, in practical terms?

<Kyrerus> Well, hope, while I am not one of them, there are Ace masters that actually won't care, but still are men.

<Kyrerus> Good question, and to that, I am going to ask a question in return.

<Kyrerus> What does the first chapter of Marauders mean to you?

<hope`> she would do it if she found someone she.. was intrigued by for that

<LionHeart> Exactly that. Gor was meant to be for everyone, but not everyone is ready, or even able, to accept and be Gorean.

<Serenity> And hope, you'll forever be in that hole that you're in. You'll live, breathe in and out, and just exist and avoid all the goods and bads. That's a rather shitty life but it's ultimately your decision.

<hope`> A life she is content to live.

<Grendel> No. I’m talking men about won’t read room rules. Much less 35 Gorean Saga books, let alone the ninth one.

<hope`> Until she's not.

— necia steps quietly back in and reads up

<hope`> And when she wishes for that to change she does know how to change it Lady

→ lori joined (lori@7B46B25C.9A832DA7.D5BCFB0.IP)

<Kyrerus> I haven't read three dozen Gorean books, fuck I learned most my shit before many of them were written

<@Violent> I agree. I will likely never read all 35

<Serenity> lori, class/discussion is still going on - topic: What is a serve.

<Kyrerus> It's a big ask. But I'm not asking for 'all 35'

<Serenity> No greeting.

<@Violent> Maybe when I'm old and crippled

— necia read through dancers, then life took over

<Kyrerus> I'm asking for one chapter, in the one book that is considered by many of us to be the bext.

<Grendel> Ok. So someone said you’re not worth shit, you took it to heart, and bettered yourself independently?

<Kyrerus> Actually, kinda yes.

<Kyrerus> But really what happened

<Kyrerus> Someone said I was worth a damn, and let me exist in a community where I could become a man.

<Kyrerus> I wasn't shit when I walked in.

<Serenity> I have no doubt in my pinky toe that you know how to change it.

<@Violent> Men guiding men

<Kyrerus> But that man let me be a man, learn from my mistakes, and gave me the opportunity to become who I am.

<Kyrerus> And I call that man my Brother more than two decades later.

<Grendel> They would have to take an active role, and then men would have to be humble enough to accept guidance. Or……they can disappear in PM with slaves and leave when done.

<Kyrerus> This community, as a whole, does not want you to be a man.

<Kyrerus> They're afraid of you becoming a man.

<@Violent> Because then they will be forced to face their truths

— necia rarely comes to Gor anymore because there are almost no men left that are worth a words notice

<Kyrerus> When I was mentored, by my Brother, the toxicity of the culture at large was something we rarely spoke of directly, but it was there. And I was taught not to accept that toxicity, that if society does not want you to be a man, then that society is wrong, not you.

<@Violent> Or more so anyway

<Kyrerus> Notice: Not to be cruel. My brother was not cruel.

<LionHeart> You like quotes, Grendel... here's one of my fav's;

<Kyrerus> Not to be harsh.

<LionHeart> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kShiQ2Yr/

<Grendel> So are we training girls to better serve these people, and just arming them with the knowledge that they likely aren’t serving Goreans?

<Kyrerus> LionHeart, my oldest Gorean friend, taught me that it is both good to demand what I want of a girl, but also, to use it to be happy.

<Serenity> "Men exist for the sake of one another. Teach them then or bear with them."

<Serenity> -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121 AD -180 AD) Roman Emperor, 161-180 AD

<Kyrerus> Yes, Grendel. It's the truth.

<Kyrerus> LionHeart taught me mercy, and empathy.

<Grendel> Ok. As long as the cards are on the table

<Kyrerus> Goreans do not hide from that truth.

<LionHeart> You took the time, Ky, to learn and grow, and most importantly, you were never afraid to step out on your own and put it to the test. To see if it was true or not, for yourself.

— necia looks to Master Kyrerus as she softly asks

<Kyrerus> LionHeart did not teach me to obey.

<Kyrerus> He taught me to learn.

→ Rhage joined (Killer@xchat-58014BE5.midco.net)

<necia> Master, you teach her how, arm her with knowledge... where in does she learn how to smoothly get out of a situation with an 'asshat' without garnering issues within a room as lack of respect from a slave

<Rhage> Tal Free

<Serenity> The "better serve" extends more than to the man she serves. It extends to the expression of who she is, what she presents, why she's here, what she wishes to offer in Gor.

<Rhage> Tal beasts

<Kyrerus> Good question, and an honest one.

<Serenity> Tal, Rhage. We are in the middle of class/discussion, topic being: What is a serve.

<Serenity> You are welcome to join in.

<LionHeart> Not every man who comes into the channel will be Gorean, even though most of them will claim it. And they KNOW they aren't, but they claim it still. Ask yourself why they do that? Would should they care enough about that, to lie to themselves and others?

<Rhage> ok

<Kyrerus> There's a lot of techniques a girl can use, but you know how you use a serve to grow closer, and incourage interaction?

— yuna{G} listens curiously.

<Kyrerus> You can do the opposite as well, you can do a distant rote serve. Everyone who knows better will know you're 'going through the motions.' Many will just see you as 'doing what is expected.'

<Kyrerus> Anything beyond that is community dependant. If it were my place, for example, you bet your ass I'd have your back.

<Serenity> If you want to convey you're a really shitty girl that hates men, hates serving and is just 'going through the motions' it's super easy to do that.

<Grendel> I think they honestly believe they are no different from Goreans, because the standard they are using to measure themselves are how Gorean Men publicly interact with slaves

— necia nods softly as she considers her words a moment

<Kyrerus> Men need to step up. That's always been the case.

<Kyrerus> They may honestly believe they are no different. But the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

— hope` bites on her bottom lip gently as she listens, a brow quirked quizzically

— LionHeart chuckles

<@Violent> Like you said Kyre, you know your shit, you know how to Master women and get what you desire of them... stepping up for the community can be daunting when it only takes one exquisite girl to satisfy your whims

<LionHeart> Duty calls, I need to step away for a bit. Hopefully I'll be back before you leave Ky, Violent.

<@Violent> Be well

— LionHeart stands

<Kyrerus> Alright, Brother. And if not, Serenity knows where to find me.

<Rhage> Be well ,LionHeart

<mouthy{T}work> It's usually the sexual aspect of Gor that attracts most Men to it in the first place. They here it's the place to go for a quick lay. So it really is up to the other Men to help guide them.

<necia> ok, so the first time a girl serves a man, she does not necessarily know if he is a man or an 'asshat', many times a Master or idjiot may wish to speak in pm and it may be simple conversation.... (remembers her slap for assumptions on thta one) it is when in PM that things become... well.... more problematical

<LionHeart> I wish you all, well. Ta Sardar Gor!

<Serenity> I wish you well, LionHeart.

LionHeart → Lion|AFK

<Kyrerus> Of course, necia.

<@Violent> Ta Sardar Gor

<Kyrerus> Now full disclosure--I don't run a strict Gorean lifestyle community any more.

<sadie{T}> maybe a weird question, but it strikes me as something I'd like to know: can Men be Men (i.e. Gorean) without the inclusion of slave girls somewhere in the mix, or does it *have* to have that sexual element mixed in?

<Serenity> I'm curious...

<Serenity> Why do men need to step up?

<Kyrerus> I've done my time. Nowadays I generally work on mentoring roleplay communities on the finer aspects, because fuck it, not my pig not my farm, I did my part.

— lori listens and considers

<Kyrerus> I have my small little circle and I'm happy with that.

<Rhage> yes Sex has nothing to do with being Gorean , sadie

<@Violent> We all take our breaks Kyrerus

<Kyrerus> I've tried to change the community.

<Kyrerus> It never works. The community does not want to be changed.

<@Violent> Agreed

<Kyrerus> But what can I change?

— Serenity may or may not tiptoe into Kyrerus' little circle.

<Kyrerus> The circle of my sword-reach. Or whipknife reach.

<@Violent> Anything In the radius of your sword

<@Violent> Yep

— sadie{T} smiles to Master Rhage.

— mouthy{T}work hides in Lady Serenity's pocket

→ @Xallen (opped) joined

<Kyrerus> Good men

<Kyrerus> ....we stay friends.

<@Violent> If a woman puts herself at my feet I always try to impart wisdom

<Serenity> Tal, Xallen. We're in the middle of class/discussion where the topic is: What is a serve?

<Kyrerus> We don't build a community of 'rooms' or 'home stones' that waver with the winds of change.

<@Xallen> Tal

<Grendel> Tal Xallen

<Rhage> Tal , Xallen

<Kyrerus> We build our own little community, and years can pass, but... the brotherhood remains. There's no demand, no requirement. It just is.

<Kyrerus> It's a herd of cats.

<Kyrerus> the Gorean community is about authoritarianism, in the free, it's about serving an Ubar or Administrator or chasing a title, and it's not about... just being the best man you can be, making mistakes and getting back up.

← Rhage left (Killer@xchat-58014BE5.midco.net)

<Kyrerus> Tarl fucked up.

<Kyrerus> Jason fucked up.

<Kyrerus> I've fucked up (oh god have I fucked up)

— Serenity listens.

<Kyrerus> But they move on, they grow, they fight on.

<Kyrerus> They stand up, and the seek not validation from one's peers, but peers who will elevate them.

<Kyrerus> And slaves... I think that's the men you want to serve.

<Kyrerus> So serve them.

<@Violent> Ive learned more of what NOT to do...lol

<Kyrerus> And accept that some men aren't there. And some men make mistakes. And some men don't even know they can be men, and some men are taught not to be men, even here, where they're supposed to be learning.

<Serenity> Very well said!

<Kyrerus> I generally suggest, to men learning Gor, to read Fighting Slave->Rogue->Guardsman. Can anyone hazard a guess as to why?

<@Xallen> You stink, Wayvryn!

<@Xallen> You stink, Wayvryn!

→ Hadrian joined (uid499106@xchat-455FE36C.irccloud.com)

<Kyrerus> FUCKIN HATE THAT NAME

<Kyrerus> I mean Tal!

<Kyrerus> speaking of mistakes

<@Xallen> Hehej

<Grendel> Because Jason didn’t being High Caste Warrior?

Hadrian → Guest47872

<Kyrerus> Oh he certainly did not.

<Kyrerus> But there's more to it.

<aylin> because men on earth are barbarians and Jason learns to go from barbarian male slave to free man?

→ mari joined (afkmari@xchat-A8ADA93C.hsd1.il.comcast.net)

<Serenity> Tal, Hadrian. We're in the middle of class/discussion, topic being : What is a serve?

<Serenity> You're welcome to join in.

aer-i-al → DJ`aerialbotgurl

<Kyrerus> Yes, aylin, but what does that mean?

↔ Hadrian (was Guest47872) nipped out

— mari sits down on the slave furs and goes back to the conversation

<Kyrerus> wb mari. The question to the class:

<aylin> it means that not all males get a pass?

<Kyrerus> I generally suggest, to men learning Gor, to read Fighting Slave->Rogue->Guardsman. Can anyone hazard a guess as to why?

<@Violent> For the love of god, I've got alot of back reading to do

<yuna{G}> I haven't read them, Master.

<Kyrerus> That's fair, yuna.

— necia does not remember the books enough to have a clue

<Kyrerus> If no one knows that's fine.

— mireille{T} doesn’t know.

<hope`> They are male centric Master about the growth of a man becoming a man

<Grendel> He began a slave and banged everyone.

<mari> maybe because they show different ways to be a man

<Kyrerus> YES

<Kyrerus> HOPE YES.

<Kyrerus> Jason is growing to become a man.

<Kyrerus> And Jason *fucks up*

— hope` curtsies

<Kyrerus> Jason ges programmed, and the books are about deprogramming.

— freshey{O} must serve dinner, and quietly scoots wishing the Free well

<lori> Those books also have a great emphasis on Manhood Master, what it involves how you might falter but keep going, the emphasis on picking up and keeping going is important for a Gorean Master.

⇐ freshey{O} quit (bless@my.heart)

<Kyrerus> He's fighting the Jason that grew up on Earth, with earth expectations (the performative politeness I mentioned earlier), in order to find the Man that wants to come out within

<Kyrerus> Jason is us.

<Kyrerus> Jason is that guy, who has no fucking clue what is right and what is not right, wandering into a Gorean room, trying to make sense of it

<aylin> but he does so as slave. without the expectation of service from girls. so we ignore that part?...for the sake of time?

<Kyrerus> And the Lady Florences of our community are teaching him wrong things, for their own purposes, for their own power, to stunt him, to prevent him from becoming the man they fear.

<Grendel> Oh he got serviced

<Grendel> He got serviced almost every chapter

<Kyrerus> aylin--he does so as slave, but he becomes free.

<Kyrerus> Jason got a lot of tail, that is true

<Kyrerus> But... he learned from that.

<Grendel> Then he began converting Free Women to slaves like he was at a religious revival

<Kyrerus> He didn't just get serviced. He had conversations with honest girls, he got told when he was fucking up, he learned from girls, and men, and he sorted his shit out.

<Kyrerus> I learned a LOT from talking with girls, Grendel.

<Kyrerus> They'll be honest, if you let them.

— Serenity smiles.

<lori> In ways he showed the Transformation process ideally, and in the end refused to give up his birthright and just take what he wanted.

<Kyrerus> Yes.

<Serenity> That's been a rather big topic here of late.

<Kyrerus> And his relation with Bev really hits that home.

<Kyrerus> He fucks up.

<yuna{G}> I've heard that a lot from Masters I have met, that they learned a lot from slave girls in their early experiences.

<Kyrerus> He lets Bev be free when she's begging him to enslave her. Maybe some in this community would go 'he's a man he's in the right' but the story is very clear: Jason is wrong.

— yuna{G} listens.

<lori> That relationship also showed the confusion they both had Master, trying to navigate a culture they really couldnt compare to earth.

<Kyrerus> Right, and trying to do right by each other *without listening to each others' needs*

<Grendel> A lot of the teaching is presented in conversations with slaves

<Kyrerus> Grendel, you asked why a man should correct a slave he does not own, in that home

<Kyrerus> The answer is so that you both can listen to each other, and find fulfillment of each others' needs.

<Grendel> I think you expressed the community is vastly different than what it should be

<Kyrerus> I merely challenge you to reject the idea that an irc room gives any inherent authority to block that fundamental, enjoyable, interaction.

<Kyrerus> This room invited me here to talk

<Kyrerus> But it does not give me any authority, or take any away. That's an inherent quality to myself.

<Grendel> I have gotten white knighted from all directions

<Kyrerus> As have I.

<Kyrerus> Reject it.

<@Violent> As have i

— Grendel laughs. It’s much easier to reject by not participating

<Kyrerus> As I am aware.

<Kyrerus> However, rejecting your own authority does not mean you've rejected them.

<Kyrerus> It means you've surrendered.

<necia> many girls find quality in a man who is not afraid to be a man vs flowing with everything

<Grendel> Given up? Sure. I can hop on that semantical train. Goreans who know of Earth accept it as a slave planet and leave it to die.

<Grendel> If Norman used the language you do, he might say they aren’t worth shit?

<Kyrerus> Maybe.

— @Violent grins and leans back

<Grendel> I asked for a practical way to change the climate.

<Kyrerus> But he'd probably be more likely to have some redhead go 'This is BULLSHIT! GET THE BRICKS' and maybe some slave boy find a rock and then describe a revolution where men, who were lesser, rose against, and claimed their birthright against a toxic authority.

<Grendel> That’s your practical solution?

<Kyrerus> Gor is not merely 'manhood'. It is about manhood in defiance of mediocrity.

<Kyrerus> Yes, it is.

<Kyrerus> Stand the fuck up.

<Kyrerus> Claim the area in your sword-circle.

<Kyrerus> Own it.

<Kyrerus> Do that much. It is not a lot.

<Grendel> I’m pumped!

<Grendel> Let’s tear this place down!

<@Violent> Lol

<Kyrerus> You are being sarcastic.

— @MindFucker chuckles.

<Kyrerus> There is a quote that applies.

<Grendel> They love when I post quotes here.

<@Violent> I don't even need to do it anymore, Grendel took over the quote posting for me

— @Violent grins

<Kyrerus> "In the codes of the warriors, there is a saying; 'Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set you your limits.'"

<Kyrerus> What do you think that means?

<@MindFucker> I was going to say, you've been slacking, Violent.

<Grendel> Just don’t “get lippy”. Am I right? Or am I right, Xallen?

<Kyrerus> Or maybe this one, one that I have been fond of for years

<@Violent> Good quote

<Kyrerus> "Let those who can climb mountains climb them; let those who cannot climb them console themselves with denying their existence."

<@Violent> Will be getting part of that last one tattooed in the flesh Kyrerus

<Kyrerus> Noice!

<hope`> Obviously hope cannot speak as a free as she has spent maybe a total of 30 minutes as a free but the whole ubar within the own circle of your sword

<hope`> Some men around these parts are simply too soft in her opinion

<@Violent> Just man up

<hope`> Or too full of it

<@Violent> Own that space

<@Violent> Dont let.others infringe on it

<@Violent> Don't let displeasing slave kneel In it, unless you plan on Mastering them to be better

<necia> yes... too soft is a problem often times

<Kyrerus> And I'm going to say something, Grendel, you might not want to hear, but if you'd been around in my day, you'd have heard it whether you wanted to or not from the Silk and Steel brigade

<Kyrerus> You have permission to be a man here, the floor is open, you are allowed to let it out, to actually just chill the fuck down and be happy.

<Kyrerus> So just fucking do it.

<Kyrerus> If you don't, who is to blame? The people in some room across the way that has no power here? Fuck them.

<Kyrerus> In your private interactions, are you not in charge?

<Kyrerus> You're the only one who can be in charge of your own experience and your own expectations and your own happiness. So do that.

<Grendel> Been there and done that Kyrerus. I have not heard of you until today. You’re preaching to the choir. Nothing I have said has not come from recent experience in this room.

<Kyrerus> If you can't--if you can't even stand up and act to make yourself *happy* with a slave... she's gonna be in trouble. Because you can't find fulfillment, how can she?

<Kyrerus> You criticize, and you are skeptical.

<Kyrerus> You are, to me, the man of Port Kar who is crushed under the heel of the Five Ubars.

<Kyrerus> You don't know you can have honor, you can be truly free, you don't know that you can love Port Kar--or in this case, a Gorean community.

<@Violent> Kyrerus, how many times have you been kicked and or banned from a "Gorean" room?

<Kyrerus> No one told me I had to count, Violent.

<@Violent> Lol

<Grendel> Being critical is not throwing out a blanket statement that men of Gor are not worth shit?

<hope`> You lose count after awhile

<Grendel> You’re saying I am critical like it’s a bad thing.

<Serenity> hope`, men are speaking.

<Kyrerus> Well they aren't.

<Kyrerus> But I'm asking you to be better than that.

<Kyrerus> You gave me excuses why you can't.

<Kyrerus> And I'm telling you--stand up, and just be happy.

<Kyrerus> Figure out what makes you happy, and do that.

<@Violent> Become a Karian

— @Violent grins

<Kyrerus> 'You have to follow my rules.' 'I am of Port Kar. I do not.' *surprisedpikachu.jpg*

<@Violent> Lol

<@Violent> Pikachu, isn't very Gorean Kyre

<Kyrerus> *ponders that, and goes into his bank account, to check the balance of fucks he has left to give*

<Kyrerus> Shit, i'm overdrawn

<@Violent> Heh

<Hadrian> you don’t keep money in your bank account?

<Kyrerus> *is about to answer*

<Kyrerus> I'm not answering where I keep my money in a room of Karians!

<Hadrian> I don’t think he has any money, guys

<Kyrerus> I'm a student, of course I have no money

— lori is a perpetual student!

<Kyrerus> So, any questions? heckling? titflashing?

— necia is a slave and not allowed money.... giggles

— lori wiggles here current form being naked, squirms to wiggle breasts nicely

<hope`> it's been.. an interesting discussion Master

<@Violent> I really appreciate you coming in and leading the discussion Kyrerus, it was awesome of you and I'll be reading back after I enjoy my grilled porterhouse steak this evening

<hope`> she does appreciate the conversation and hearing others opinions

<Kyrerus> I appreciate you having me, Violent.

— necia smiles to Master Kyrerus

<@Violent> I hope you visit more often, it's been a long ass time

<aylin> thank you, Master. aylin hopes you visit more often.

<Kyrerus> Well, I do enjoy running a class from time to time.

<sadie{T}> thank you, Master Kyrerus! I really learned a lot! I hope you stick around..

<necia> I could listen to you for hours Master, this has been a very thought filling and delightful conversation/class today

<yuna{G}> Thank you for taking time to teach us and give us a new outlook, Master. Best class ever.

<@MindFucker> Indeed, thank you, Kyrerus, for your time and thought.

<hope`> Though she stills thinks far too generalized there is still something to be taken away she thinks

<lori> Thank you so much Master, hope to see Master again

<mireille{T}> No questions, Master, thank you for taking time for this class, it’s been really enlightening, and I’m excited to try new techniques

<Hadrian> how long does it take to cook a porterhouse in the microwave, Violent?

— necia tries not to burst out laughing at that question

Kyrerus> Cool, now, if you don't mind I'm going to sit my ass down and be cool and froody.